doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Simson & Co. SUHL drilling

Thanks again JC.

I lucked out with the one photo of the barrel proof marks. They atually show up pretty clearly on that one. Now to interpret them. I did send the pictures to the German Gun Collectors Assn. as Simcgunner suggested but haven't heard anything back from them yet.

Bobby

BobbyAZ:

The pic of the proofmarks is for the barrel with the rifling which is noted by the "crown over G". The lone stylized Eagle is the note of the tube passing the 1st proof of a powder charge threefold the normal. The stylized Eagle in combination with the "crown of U" notes the passing of the 2nd proof of a double powder charge. I don't see a "crown over N" for the rifle or the Nitro mark for the shotgun, but the two shotgun tubes should also have proofmarks on the flats as there is what looks to be a BP preliminary stamp on the right tube in the pic. Steve Meyer, member of the GGCA, to whom the email will probably be forwarded, usually makes a post on German proofmark questions here. Chamber cast and slugging the bore is the only method to determine the calibre for the 67/49 pre-rifling tube/bore plug stamp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Note that the original question posted by BobbyAZ has the name spelled correctly: "Simson." There was a story a few years back where one of the decendants of the original German family now living in the US and apparently making some effort to keep up with the history of the families gun making business was rather upset with the spelling of the family name as "Simpson" in the way of the idiot tv cartoon character. There is no "P" in the German gun making families' name.

Both shotgun tube flats have the same stylized Eagle with a "crown over S" beside that eagle. On both sides, under the top eagle is another eagle and under that eagle is a "crown over U" with two "16"s under that with the seccond "16" circled. On the left barrel beside the second eagle is a "W" but I don't see it on the right barrel. I did get an automatic response from the GDCA that said they were out of town for two weeks.

BobbyAZ:

Yes, 1st threefold powder charge(with double the Normal shot load-I think), 2nd double powder charge(1 1/3 times Normal) w/ "crown over U". The number "16" is a bore measurement. It could have been 15 or 16/1, etc. The number "16" inside the circle is the bore/gauge. The "crown over W(Wurgebohrung)" is for choke. Choke bored tubes were measured at 22cm ahead of the standing breech. Without a "Nitro" mark, it was proofed/proved for blackpowder and a service load at 15/16 oz. Also, the chambers are 65mm(2 9/16" or 2 1/2"). You should attempt to keep the pressure say around 6k psi using Eley, RST or Polywad "Vintager" shotshells. Upon request, they should give you a pressure number. I have a very similar drilling/dreilaufer with a rifle in 9.3x72R that I use on planted pheasant & quail. Even though the stock is a little short, it is a joy to tote & shoot. I forgot to note the "crown over S" which is a mark for a smoothbore. The "S" in the oval on the rifle is for Suhl, I believe. And the marks above the rifle proofmarks may be the barrel maker's stamp, but I can't tell exactly what they are.

Also, the "crown over G" is where the G is for Gezogen/Gezeugen(rifle).

ChiefShotgun is correct and I think that the Simson brothers(Lob & Moses) were German Jews.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Nice job Raimey & 2-piper, not much for me to add. 67/49 is a common gauge mark for any of the various 11mm cartridges; the most common in these guns is the 11,15x60R (.43) Mauser round that was also the German military cartridge, but there were dozens of others and any of them would be marked the same way. Chamber cast is the only way to go.

Most everybody of the GGCA "staff", such as it is, is off to the LV show. I'll be monitoring GGCA email and such since I stayed home.

Steven:

Thanks, but can the date be narrowed with the 1893-1911 time period? Also, I have read in "Beschub-zeichen" by G. Wirnsberger that for a shotgun tube without choke proofed/proved during this measurement was made a the muzzle and not at 22cm from the standing breech, am I reading this correctly?

I would also guess the cartridge to be blackpowder version of the 11.15X60R.

KInd Regards,

Raimey
rse

So is it possible to date this gun from the serial #4155?
And would anybody venture a ball park guess as to its value?

Bobby

BobbyAZ:

Records may exist, but I bet that most were destroyed during WWII.

Without holding it in my hands, I would begin by saying that it could be in the $750 - $1500 range. I'm sure others will give/venture a guess.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I agree with your valuation. - Jani