doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "Factory alterations"

Several years I trraded a very nice "D" grade Parker to a dealer for another gun I thought I couldn't live without. At the time, I knew very little about Parkers, but the dealer insisted that the 26" barrels had been cut. He showed me several other Parkers he had that had the blank space on the last 1/8" or so of the top rib. The pattern on my gun extended to the end of the rib. I didn't know what they were at the time, but now know that the keels were present in the end of the barrels. It seems, in general, that buyers of vintage doubles discount the value (sometimes substantially) of guns that have been altered (restocked, rebarrelled, or refinished), unless those alterations were done by the factory. In most cases, alterations done by the manufacturer seem to be acceptable as "original", at least as far as value goes and especially when documented. One of the most detrimental alterations is cut barrels. My curiosity was sparked when reading an old L.C. Smith repair price list which includes the cost for "cutting barrels", with the notation that this would remove chokes. I have to believe this was requested more than once for it to be included in the published repair list. And I would also conclude that Parker, Fox and Ithaca also had requests for this work. How would you feel about buying a high quality vintage double with shortened barrels if the job was documented as being done by the maker? How about if it looked original, but not documemted? This is assuming that the barrel length and chokes (or lack thereof) would be acceptable to you on an unaltered gun. Has anyone ever received a letter on a Parker or Smith that indicated the barrels had been shortened by the factory?

I agree that non-documented cut barrels are a detriment to the value of a gun. Certainly the lack of any choke at all severely limits the use of such a gun but there are some kinds of shooting/hunting that can be done with an open choked gun. Generally a non-factory barrel cutting is just that - cutting off 2" (usually) to eliminate the chokes and maybe trimming and squaring the barrel ends, while a factory job includes reinstalling the keels and relaying the ribs - the correct way that, when documented, does nothing to the gun's value. So much for barrels - in my opinion, similar things can be said of various other alterations. If it can be documented, no problem.

I agree with DAM16SXS. If it was factory done and you can prove it, it shouldn't devalue the gun. But I would probably prefer one that was exactly the same, in the same condition, that had not been altered. (If it was something that I had been looking for). That's the perfenctionist in me.

I'd still not like it if it removed chokes I thought I needed.

I'm not a collector perse'. So, I don't much care except that I'd want some choke.

Btw, the presence of a "keel" means very little to me. It's simply a piece of filler metal to make it easy to fill the triangular void and can be made and installed by anyone. In fact, I dropped and lost the one in my Parker barrels when re-laying the ribs and made another in a few minutes from a piece of square keystock and a disksander. So, if someone can run a propane torch and a disksander, he can put a "keel" in after cutting. It's not conclusive of originality.

I don't know any answers, but this is one of the more interesting questions that have come up.

Guns made by Parker Brothers with alterations documented in factory records are of interest to Parker collectors. The price is up to the seller and the buyer. Some documented alterations affect the price very little, some a bit more.

A yr or so back, someone had a graded Parker for sale on the net that had very short barrels (less than 26") but claimed they were "factory cut". I think he had a letter eluding to it, but I could never find the conclusive wording to that effect in the letter, which he showed on the web ad. I wasn't in the market for this gun, but I was suspicious, as anyone buying a high condition/grade/cost gun should be.

I once shot a Parker with 24" factory barrels. It was one of a set built for a Doctor on the upper Eastern Shore. I am certain that they had been ordered that way, not bobbed by Bob the gunsmith. Since I shot the short stocked gun poorly and not being educated to the value of rare Parkers I passed on the set. Not one of my brighter minutes, I must say, in hind sight. Oh well, you can not buy them all and I would have certainly sold it long ago for some other must have gun.

Chuck the gun you refer to may have been the same one but this was a set of guns to shoot Skeet. I doubt that they were broken up as a set.

I look for the matting on the end, the tubes touching at the end, keels, and lastly the chokes in the guns. That said , years ago I helped Oscar back bore a high grade Parker to make some choke, then the rib tip was cleaned off,relayed and keels added. Damn few people have that kind of skill but it can be done.
bill