doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com John Dickson & Sons Round Action

The formula is not all things to all people. Round Actions are outside the range of "usual." Note that I finished up saying that the Gavin Gardener estimate suggested a 94% premium on this pair; practically double the price of similar brand, quality, and condition SLE's. We shall see how these sell come mid-April.

Here is a pair of MacNaughton's (auction estimate of £12,000-16,000) that sold at Holt's for £13,000 (about $32,500 for the pair/$16,250 per gun) at the March sale. Formula: BV2-OQ1-CC4 = $11,938. Premium = 36% over formula. Are MacNaughton's priced less than Dickson's?

http://213.219.62.57/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=1016++++1317+&refno=+++15325&saletype=

The formula can't give you exacting prices on everything. The market is way, way too complex for that. However, it does organize the market in a way that makes pricing much easier to understand (and remember) and it gives you a baseline for comparing guns outside the usual. Round actions are outside the usual.

Here is single Dickson from Holt's. Estimate £6,000-8000, hammer at £7,500 (retail USA = $18,750). BV2-OQ1-CC4 = $11,938. Premium = 57%

http://213.219.62.57/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=1016++++1418+&refno=+++15336&saletype=

This MacNaughton failed to make reserve on an estimate of ,000-8,000. £6,000 reserve = $15,000. So, this gun failed to bring a 26% premium.

http://213.219.62.57/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=1016++++1418+&refno=+++15336&saletype=

This Dickson hammered at £9,500 (estimate of £8,000-12,000) for a retail of $23,750. BV@-OQ1-CC3 = $15,686. Premium = 151%

http://213.219.62.57/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=1016++++1443+&refno=+++16040&saletype=

Some people are willing to pay the premium and others are not. That is why we have a market. My point would be that you must be willing to pay a 25% premium above a best SLE for a MacNaughton Round Action and something over 50% if you want a Dickson.

Thorny is right on the dinero......here is lovingly refreshed piece that proly went for about 20k>>>>
There is no 'MacGregor' in my walkin closet, so I would buy rounded action scaloped (well filed A&D type) French BLE with concave top rib, no bottom rib for similar handling characteristics and use the remaining 18k to 18.5k to buy lifetime supply of NON-TOX 65mm cartiridges and some more land.

Watch restocks on any of these--not many will do it and most would not do it well according to the experts among us. A couple of these pieces at Julia's in the last handful of years did not go for as much as the premiums now indicated due to a stock extension, lever cocking mechanism, or barrel wall thinness.

Much depends on who is in the crowd at any given sale I suppose. No other explanation makes much sense. Prices have been all over the place but good examples are selling for just under primo big Brit names and over the second tier bests ime.

Rocketman,

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I understand your point and I appreciate the perspective it brings to the issue of valuing fine doubles.

Here is an even more odd looking Round Action:

John Dickson & Son was established in Edinburgh, where the company is still in business trading under the name Dickson & MacNaughton, in 1820. They have made flintlocks, percussion-fire, pinfire and centerfire guns and rifles over the years, including boxlocks and sidelocks. The trigger-plate "round action" gun for which they are now most famous was patented in its present form in 1887. Dickson stopped producing guns in the late-1960s though they stayed in business reparing guns and selling second-hand guns and accessories. Round action production resumed in about 1991 and a small number of guns have been made since. The design of the action and lockwork means that the gun can be made quite light without sacrificing strength. The design leaves more metal in the action bar than either an A&D boxlock or the much-praised bar-action sidelock. The design allows for the use of long, flat mainsprings with rollers fitted to their noses that bear on the tumblers, stronger and mechanically more efficient than the V-springs of a sidelock. The ejectors are housed in the action body (rather than the more common location in the forend) and use coil springs - again, less likely to break than small V-springs.

The finest Scottish round action guns made today are those from David McKay Brown in Glasgow. David set up business in 1967 and began making guns under his own name using the Dickson design (the patent having long-expired) in 1974. He also patented an over & under "round action" in the early 1990s and now makes about an equal number of o/u and side-by-side guns.

These guns are relatively rare. Dickson has made only about 2000 round action guns; McKay Brown about 450 to date.

They are wonderful guns, light and responsive, sleek, strong, and attractive to the eye. The earliest Dickson round actions had cocking indicators and the lockwork was not gold-washed to inhibit corrosion. Dicksons come in all conditions, from guns that are worn out to those that are like-new, so it pays to have someone knowledgable about these superb guns to have a look at any prospective purchases.

Another alternative though I think it is dearer:



Famars Avantis

JC

As for Dickson serial numbers: #4500 - 1892; #5000 - 1898; #5500 - 1903; #6000 - 1907; #6500 - 1913; #7000 - 1924; #7200 - 1929; #7300 - 1934; #7400 - 1939; #7500 - 1944; #7600 - 1961; #7700 - 1972. The last of the "original" Dicksons was #7759. When production resumed in 1990-91, the first new serial number was 8000. Some guns were finished out-of-order, especially after WWII, so that an earlier serial # may have been completed a year or even two after a higher serial #.

Markel,

Info. on individual serial #s is available from Dickson for a small fee.

Shooting Sportsman, May/June 2003, has an excellent article by Stephen Davis. Steve has been repairing/restoring Dicksons for quite some time. His knowledge of correct finishes for different periods is amazing as well as other arcane areas such as changes in action profiling. If you are interested in purchasing, he is in constant contact with the Dickson community and may be able to help.

At the least, he is a delight to talk with.

Fred