doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 410 Challenge

Steve: I did just that many years back, when I was a bit faster and filled with myself. I found an honestly used Western Arms Long Range .410, opened the right brl to skeet and kept the left full, worked hard at low gun skeet using that gun exclusively, shooting 4-5 rounds per week until routinely hitting 22-23 targets, and did so for many months before the bird season. Used quality 3" 7 1/2 shells after quail behind pointing dogs with all the shots 20-25 yards. Did so for about 1/2 the season in KS and MO and gave up in disgust (at myself) for losing so many birds that had obviously been hit, despite some pretty good dogs. A sample size of one does not establish statistical significance, but that was my experience. Others have apparently had a very different result, which is fine and fun to talk about.

Revdoddrew
Thank you, now here is a negative response that I can respect! It's not the same as my experience, and I don't know why, but at least it's based actual field experience.
Steve

Revdocdrew
After some thought I see one big difference between your experience and mine; I used my .410 on pen-raised pheasants at hunting preserves with a flushing dog, a big difference from my experiences with wild birds (I've only hunted wild birds with a 12 or 16 gauge shotgun). Based on what little bit of quail hunting I've done, quail are a bit harder to hit then a pheasant (at least for me). That said, I'd take quail over pheasants any day.
Steve

I think my post has been totaly mis-interpreted. I am in total agreement the largest drawback to most .410's has been that over the years virtually all of them sold as "Hunting Guns" have been bored full choke. As to the "Cheating" part I was simply saying if you shoot an I/C pattern firing 11/16oz of shot from a 6lb gun, "WHAT" makes it more "Challenging" or "More Fun" than firing 3/4 or 7/8 oz from a 20ga 6lb I/C gun at 20-25 yds. Since I already have a 6lb 20 I simply see no inducement for paying the exorbitant prices a decent .410 would cost & then get a 6lb gun using the 3" shell. From a using standpoint the only empty "Nook" in my gun cabinet would be for a sub 5lb gun firing a max of ½ oz shot. I have incidently only ever owned one 3" chambered gun in any gauge & that was a 20ga I bought new in the late 60's. It was bought in spite of, not because of, the 3" chamber. It was predominately used with a 2½de-1oz load. In the late 70's that load with #6 shot served my then teenage son quite well in a local swamp for both woodies & mallards. My personal preference has always been more for downloading a larger gauge than pushing a smallbore to it's ultimate limits, but to each his own. I did a considerable amount of hunting with a 6lb 14oz 100+ yr old English sidelock damascus 12ga (¼ choke, both bbls) loaded with a mild 1oz load. For the purpose I was using it for this gun proved to be very effective & gave me great pleasure. No doubt every shot I made with it could have been handled by a 3" .410, many by a 2½" one. Would that have been more fun? Not to me. As nearly all of my guns over the years have been bought used & simply "Off the Shelf" as it were I denote the great success ratio of this gun to a happy co-incidence of fit & feel, not to any superiority of the gun or load itself. I realize it is probably just personal prejudice, but I just much prefer a short fat, shot column in the hull to a long skinny one. That 11/16oz of shot stacks up longer in the bore of a .410 incidently than a 1½oz load would in a 20ga, yet the 3" 20 is only loaded to 1¼oz. Just not my Cuppa Tea, Thank you. I do like to present opposing views though, & then let each decide for themselves.
When you price even an economy grade dbl such as a NS, Stevens, etc, etc in both .410 & 20 & then price a box of 3" .410's vs a box of promo 7/8oz 20's & realize both will serve essentially the same purpose, the .410 simply loses all incentive to me. Maybe I'm just "Cheap", but then, I worked hard for every dime I have & always had to try & stretch them as thin as possible.
My Main Total point though is no one should feel any need to appologize or feel handicapped if they desire to shoot a 12ga for all their hunting. Properly loaded it will handle "Efficiently" virtually anything which flies, runs or climbs.
The .410 is a special niche gun, if you have the need or desire for that special niche, I don't, my larger (bore, not weight) guns with light loads handle it quite well.

No harm intended Miller, in the immortal words of Monty Python "Lets not bicker and argue over who killed who..." And, as for the .410 "I've already gaut one, it's very nice..."
Steve

I would like to throw out a challange to any who may have the time & inclination to run an extensive pattern teating between the 3" .410, 11/16oz load; the standard 28ga 3/4oz load & standard 20ga 7/8oz load. Testing should be done with guns having as near as possible same choking. Patterns should be evaluated on something such as the 16-field target & be evaluated for pattern percentage, central core thickening & uniformity between fields in both inner & outer segments. I no longer have the inclination, nor all the guns necessary, for such an undertaking. I think many, including .410 aficionados, would be surprised at the smallness of difference. What difference there was though I would bank on being toward the 20 having the least core thickening & the greatest uniformity, with the .410 having the opposites & the 28 between, but closer to the 20. I would not be disapointed to be proven wrong, but I sincerely doubt it.

Miller, I suggest that you look through the http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/ website, your patterning thoughts may already be answered, if not I'm sure someone there will rise to the challenge. I'm curious myself but currently I have neither a 28 gauge or a 20 gauge.
Steve

For all of you .410 nay-sayers that are attempting to make the point that there are more efficient killers than the .410, you are correct, you are right, you win, you have grasped the obvious. That is, afterall, the point.

Yes, a .300 Weatherby Magnum is a more efficient killer than a bow and arrow. I've hunted with both but derived more pleasure from my take with the bow.

Some of us have found that hunting with the .410, under certain conditions, provides us with greater reward than larger gauges. For those of you looking for more enjoyment out of your hunting, I'd encourage you to try the .410. The upcoming dove season is the ideal time to start.

Thanks Chuck, I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm just sorry I rose to the bait at all earlier.
BTW hunting pen-raised poultry or wild birds with a muzzle loader can be fun and rewarding too. I have a 12 gauge Pedersoli ML, choked C/M that can easily launch 1-1/4 ounce payloads, yet only weighs 5.5 lbs. If it weren't such a PITA to reload, I'd say it was the ultimate pheasant gun.
Steve

Miller,

I've done quite a bit of .410 and 20 ga patterning (not so much with the 28). I think your observation concerning core thickening with the .410 is correct. Because the tall partially unprotected .410 payload (particularly 3" 11/16 or 3/4 oz) suffers so much scrubbing and setback a larger number of pellets are lost early in flight compared to a 20. Thus a 70% .410 pattern will have a hotter core than will the 70% 20 ga pattern.

Considered differently, a .410 pattern core that distributes like a 20 ga pattern will have a lower overall percentage of pellets in the 30" circle. When I ran the full choke M42 at 40 yds with RP #6 I saw a very nice 20" circle. There were maybe 10 pellets in the outer ring........yes, I said 10. Overall percentage was 67%, IIRC.

It's oversimplifying to imagine two distinct pellet populations in .410 3" shells: those with a chance to behave nicely, and those with no chance. But this conceptual works for me.

Sam