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"Mad Dogs & Englishmen Go Out In The Noonday Sun"......Out West I have heard that they used to chase wild horses over a cliff & load the meat on trains for New York & other places uncivilized where the population consumed things like that.

Just My Thoughts......George

As Market Hunter hinted punt gunners in UK tend to keep themselves to themselves and pace Homeless Joe's comments do so specifically to avoid the sort of uninformed remarks and criticism seen here finding their way onto the antis agenda. Punters do discuss their sport but to characterise those discussions as HomelessJoe did is a clumsy caricature born from lack of knowledge. Even within the shooting community they keep a low profile, not from any sense of guilt but because they, being few in numbers fear the steamroller of the culpably ignorant.

First as to "sporting". Yes it is a sport where things get shot and killed but I understand that members of this forum occasionally do that too. You'll see more birds killed at a "Continental Shoot" in ten minutes than the average puntsman kills in a season.

Going offshore in a gunning punt isn't for the faint hearted or physically suspect; you are not allowed mechanical propulsion; you row, sail, scull or paddle. When close to 'fowl you lie prone often with short butterpat paddles and your hands under water in a wintertime North Sea... very pleasant. You need first class boatmanship and navigation skills simply to stay alive.

Any shot you get is hard earned, and as like as not you won't get one at all; probably a majority of forays are blanks, and multiple shots in one outing are a rarity. A punters knowledge of the behaviour of birds relative to wind, moon, season and tide is unrivaled because it has to be. Without supreme skills you won't get a shot.

It's also hideously expensive to set up a punting outfit; the last time I calculated it came out around $20,000 minimum. You need as a basic kit; punt, gun, vehicle trailer, and recognised qualifications in navigation and seamanship.

Tales of enormous bags are just that ...tales. These stories about hundreds of birds being bagged are myth, unfortunately very often US engendered myth. Anything over half a dozen is a good shot; over 12 or so is a very good shot indeed.

Muzzle loaders are still a popular choice by virtue of gun weight. A front ender is much lighter than the equivalent breech loader, and therefore safer in a punt. Given that non tox is a must and steel shot is impracticable, we come down to very few alternatives mostly available in one shot size; so there is little advantage in a breech loader from a shot size / load selection point of view.

Those new muzzle loaders that I'm aware of are produced by traditional gun drilling, though there are a few produced by a modified canon frette method.

In UK punt guns do not have any sort of stock and never did; just a short knob coming straight off the breech. A stock would be hopelessly clumsy when taking a shot at jumping 'fowl; it wouldn't depress enough by virtue of fouling the punt floor. It is also impossible for a gunner to absorb recoil through a conventional stock .. just think about it. Recoil is taken care of by attaching breeching ropes to trunnions on the gun at one end and fixing them to the stem of the punt at t'other; the whole punt recoils and goes backwards. there is a device called a "boot jack" where recoil is absorbed through the puntsmans chest..highly amusing.

I've been out a few times but can't take the physical battering and the sheer bloody cold of of punting any more. It's no sport for old men.

Homeless Joe posted .... if you refer to UK that is quite wrong. Night shooting is legal afloat on the foreshore and inland. I only shoot geese and duck when night flighting now, never over decoys in daytime, precisely because it's (IMO) more sporting.

To sum up... punting is the most physically arduous, skillful, and dangerous pinnacle of the most physically arduous, skillful, dangerous, and yes romantic, of all shooting sports, coastal wildfowling.

regards
eug

Eug, he'll never belive it.

Garn, givvim a chance.

Rockdoc, if you would like some basics on muzzle loading punt guns PM or email me.

Eug

Eugene,

Thanks for a lot more in depth summary of punt gunning that I could ever give. I'm sure it won't keep Joe from further talking out of his anal orifice but at least it gets some real truth into the conversation.

As I said, I've never had the priviledge but I do know several punt gunners and have spent hours talking to them about it. I was in Alan Myers shop when he was working on the big gun for his new punt a couple years ago.

One thing you left out is the cost of making that "one shot", puntguns throw multiple ounces of shot at a time. You'd have to love it an awful lot to spend the money it would take to feed bismuth or tungsten matrix to those beasts.

When I mentioned night shooting I strickly meant that they really didn't punt at night anymore. Night flighting ducks and geese with a shoulder gun is something I've been lucky enough to do more than once on my trips over your way.

One of my fondest memories of gunning is shooting pinkfoot geese on a cloudy night in Scotland with a double 8 bore. The moon was out but you could only see them when they were directly over you because it was just a bit too cloudy. After the shot they'd be out of sight in a second and you just had to listen for a thump behind you to know you'd killed one.

I can still feel the recoil of the gun and remember how dark it was after the muzzle flash before my eyes adjusted again. Listening for the flocks to call and straining my eyes to see them when I knew they were close. All flying low, hundreds passed me to the sides probably well within gunshot but out of sight in the darkness.

The rush to get the heavy gun to my shoulder when I finally spotted a flock, the thrill of hearing that thump behind me when I'd gotten the lead right. And lastly the relief I felt when the spaniels brought it the same amount of birds as I'd heard thumps. I was keen to do it but didn't want the bad taste in my mouth of losing a cripple just because of the dark.

I'm sure Joe will have some trite comment about this as well but I could care less. I'd go back in a second.......


Regards,
Destry

Destry,

For a doggy person the greatest thrill of nightflighting is the soft bump at your knee when the dog comes back with the bird.

Many years ago my Springer pulled a moonflighted running woodcock out of a Christmas tree plantation (he hadn't seen it go in, it was a blind for him). That is the absolute pinnacle of my sporting life.

Eug

I'm a changed man....I'm looking up tO you punt men now. ...bobbing around in your little boats lining up that big cannon for the one shot kill.

I think the thing that changed my mind was the part where you were "shooting pinkfoot geese on a cloudy night" it sounds so romantic. ....(my buddy in Nashville has an original boat with a mounted punt gun maybe he'll take me for a midnight cruise).





Truthfully that came straight from my anus.

Eugene,

Oddly enough, I had a similar experience in England though it wasn't my dog. My friend the Captain runs a little woodcock shoot and had me down as a guest a few years ago. I'd never seen a European Woodcock let alone shot one before. Missed my first bird of the day, too long a story to type. Didn't have another try till the first drive after lunch when I managed to knock one out that the gun to my right had missed. I was thrilled needless to say, just beside myself really. I had my bird and didn't care a bit if I shot another but the boys insisted that I try the night flight later that evening. We all took our stands alone on different lanes through the wood. I actually had a chance for a right and left if I'd been fast enough, a pair of birds crossed me not 10 yards high. But I was hesitant in the dark as there were other types of birds flying and I didn't want to make a mistake. Just as I could hear the boys coming to pick me up I caught a glimps of one zipping over my right sholder. I snapped the gun through the bird, actually pulling the trigger after it had disappeared in the dark. Heard a limb crack and the leaves rustle as it fell through the timber so I knew I'd shot straight. The Captain came up with his dog a few minutes later and sent him in, he was gone a long time, working the brush. Then I faintly heard him (the dog) make a little huffing sound and my friend nudged my arm saying quietly "He has it", a second later there he was with my bird in his mouth. Another one of my greatest moments in the field. My first and probably only time on European woodcock and I had one both ways, driven and flighted. They gave me the little pinfeathers from both birds and I slipped them inside the empty cartridge I'd killed the first one with then hand closed the crimp back down. It sits on my shelf and I pick it up often......


Destry

P.S. To Joe: You must know Howard.

Destry,

I have never met Captain Shorthouse, but I've spoken to him on the phone ... as you realise this is not an undertaking to be lightly contemplated. There are more limbless donkeys in Dorset than the rest of the country put together.

Joe posted bobbing around in your little boats lining up that big cannon. Joe, a punt is around 22 foot long, very narrow, open decked, and has about 5" max of freeboard, no keel and a much closer centre of gravity than we'd like relative to the centre of buoyancy. If that sucker starts bobbing you won't be lining up a shot you'll be paddling for your life. Punts are not very seaworthy, their profile is determined by the needs of a stealthy approach ie minimum height and width possible; unlike most other vessels buoyancy is gained from length rather than width at the beam. They also have only a modest amount of flare (you can't afford the noise of wave slap). This combination gives a marked tendency to cut through waves rather than ride them; not a good feature in a seaboat. The beam has to allow for enough lateral stability for a man to stand up and no more.

The design and construction of the punt relative to local conditions is far more challenging than that of the gun and puts a bigger stress on your physical skills and mental resources.

Eug

This thread has been very educational. Back in the mid 50's, I think, Dad had a "Bay Scull Boat" built by an old Portygee, Vincente Lacosta. We kept it in a rented garage in Alviso, at the South end of San Francisco bay It was stored on a cart, with Bicycle wheels and could be pushed/pulled to the usable at good tide ramp in Alviso. We went halves on a Model 12 Waterfowler, 3" chambered, solid rib, cuz Dad didnt want to take any "Good Guns' on the salt. The boat had almost no freeboard, 2 short oars for getting on the water and a long scull for sneaking up on rafts of ducks. They were mostly Bluebill with a Sprig now and then. It was positivley scary when the wind came up, and I cant imagine being on really big water with a Punt Gun in cold weather. Lots of funny stories, sitting stranded on a mud flat, low tide, within a couple hundred yards of the ramp, for what seemd like days. Dad getting hit square in the forehead by a dead incomer...good times. I went off to save the world from Kommonism, and the boat was gone when I came back, I think Uncle Kenny got the Model 12...No punt boat, but a lot of similarity.