doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Curtis and Harvey no.6 powder Equivalent

Hello Tinker,

No you don't have to do anything to it. Swiss has very few fines to begin with. They just take a little extra care with 1.5 Remember in BPCR the goal is low, single digit SD's.

If you do have a powder such as GOEX with a lot of fines you can 'sock it' get an old cotton sock, dump some powder in it and gently roll it around a bit. the fines will be caught in the weave.

Here are some velocity comparisons of Swiss V. Shuetzen (I had no GOEX)Schuetzen has a slight velocity increase over GOEX.

Note that the last entry for the 550 grain paper patched bullet I had no number for Shuetzen

30" barrel

45-70-300 SWISS 1.5F = 1480 fps

45-70-300 Shuetzen 2F =1400 fps

45-70-405 SWISS 1.5F = 1286 fps

45-70-405 Shuetzen 2F =1218 fps

45-70-520 SWISS 1.5F = 1175 fps

45-70-520 Shuetzen 2F = 1070 fps

45-70-550PP SWISS 1.5F = 1141 fps

In the 28 gauge and .410 I would suggest either 3F or 2F. In the 450 BPE I would suggest the 1.5 however there would be no problem with 3F though it is hotter and you will want to have a good lube such as SPG to prevent the chance of any hard fouling during long strings of shots. Also, with Swiss for best results limit your compression to no more than .125"

My rule of thumb is anything over 45 cal. I switch to 1F

I hope this helps!

Best regards,

Terry

Just for the 2 cents...

Never got the velocities with even 3f Goex in a shotgun load that would call for 2F BP.

Even tried double cards spaced by 1" of fiber.....faster and more consistant but no where close to old volume based BP velocities.

10 and 12 gauge, paper and plastic.

This could actually be a good thing, Swiss for specific uses and maybe a coarse sort of Goex for others?

Best,
Mark

I suspect some of the velocities quoted in earlier times may have been rather optimistic, too.
RG

Gentlemen-

The way I'm seeing this is that the "F" equivalent of Swiss is not the same as the "F" equivalent of Goex

To clarify, I'll ask this question:
What is the grain size equivalent for Swiss compared to Goex for each of the Goex designations?
Fg
FFg
FFFg
FFFFg
Goex Express

I know that the C&H numbers don't correlate to the Goex system of powder size and burn rate.
I'm just trying to get this all straight.

F and a Half Swiss = Goex FFg?
(or thereabouts?)
...



--Tinker

I just know that Swiss Fg to Goex Fg, FFg toFFg and so on Swiss delivers more velocity on the chronograph per dram than Goex. Swiss seems to burn "drier" and therefore is harder to clean but that only means more time fondling the barrels of my favorite guns.

The grain size may well be close to the same for most BPs of various "F"s, but the power and density of the various powders today, just like in 1800, vary quite a bit. The only modern black powder I have had any luck with in regulating old double rifles has been Swiss, either 1-1/2Fg or FFg, usually the former. With shotguns I have not found the more expensive Swiss to be any better than Goex or Wano, but Swiss is tops for Black Powder Express doubles.

Sherman Bell (bless him!) has done a series of excellent articles in Double Gun Journal about regulating BPE doubles and the best powders for 'em, well worth finding! Also, Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" has an extensive write up of BP loading and techniques; I understand the third edition is coming soon.

Could be totally off course on this, but has always seemed to me any "Formula" for determining graulation of BP based on the dia of the bore is a hang-over from round ball days. Would seem that with elongated bullets this would go totally out the window & with shot loads as well. With a given brand of BP, granulation is essentially the only burn rate control we have. Higher load densities need slower burning powders. Any 28ga load heavier than 5/8oz or .410 load heavier than 3/8oz have a higher load density than a 12ga with 1 1/8oz. With modern powders 3/4oz & heavier 28 ga loads & all .410 loads call for slower powders than do standard 12ga loads. I see no reason it should be different for BP, though the total variation available is not so great with black.

I read an article in the last few years that related how we know for certain that many of the Black Powders of 150 yrs. ago were more energetic than anything we have today, but for the life of me I can't recall where or how. It did include comparisons of GOEX, Swiss, Shuetzen, etc. that had much the same results as the others have given here. I've only used one lb. of 2F Swiss through my flintlock as it is very hard to find in my area. No chronograph tests, but it did give somewhat flatter trajectories than an equal charge of 2F Goex at longer range. Does anyone here know how we KNOW KNOW the old stuff was better? And that begs the question, if it really was better, why can't our much more sophisticated chemical companies of the 21st century equal it if not better it?

I am enjoying this thread.
Thanks to all of you so far for your contributions.

I've been up late with a leg therapy machine on (a while to go still...) and have been searching around the web on numerous topics.

I came upon this website where there is a seemingly well documented 'charts and graphs' look at A discussion on using Swiss Powder where at the bottom of the page, there is this nice little conversion table...

Swiss to US Conversions

Swiss No.1 = 4Fg

Swiss No.2 = 3Fg

Swiss No.3 = 2Fg

Swiss No.4 = 1 1/2Fg

Swiss No.5 = 1Fg


Take a look at the linked page.
I think there is good food for thought there on this topic.
As before, I will greatly appreciate your perspective and input on the linked article.


--Tinker

Tinker,

The Swiss imported today does not use the number system as listed. Its all grain size based on pass/hold mesh sizes. Swiss 1F, 2F etc. grain size corrolates very close to GOEX, Schuetzen etc.

As for the diffrence of powders today versus those of long ago.

There were bad powders then as there are today. All companys sold what they called canister powder which was sold in bulk and not the top of the line.

The big diffrence between todays BP and yestersday is the quality and purity of the materials as well as the time spent in the mill. (more mill time more density)Beleive it or not even the weight of the wheels in the wheel mill can make a significant diffrence. The basic formula only varies a little between the various manufactures. For instance the Swiss formulate their powder with 78 parts of potassium nitrate versus 75 parts in other brands.


Most manufactures of old refined all thier raw materials - sulfer, potasium nitrate and most inportant of all thier charcoal. Today, most manufactures buy the refined material. There in is the rub.

For instance: Back in the old days natural potassium nitrate was imported from India in large quantities in raw form. Today, potassium nitrate is derived from potassium chloride reacted with nitric acid. If the resulting potassium nitrate is not purified sufficiently, then in addition to potassium carbonate and potassium sulfate in the fouling, traces of potassium chloride, which is highly corrosive, will be present. The Swiss & Schutzen folks use 99.9% puse. Unfortunatly for GOEX for many years they were unwittingly using an industrial grade.

Raw sulfer from Italy was imported and processed as well.

The link below will take you to very interesting description of a visit to a 1870's powder mill. Its a great read.

1870'S POWDER MILL VISIT

Please note that you will have to open up the individual GIF files. But its worth the effort.

Charcoal manufacturing was a fine art.

When you burn solid carbon you get no water as a product of
combustion.

When wood is chared, the lignin in the wood, a phenolic-structured chemical, is converted to other phenolic-structured liquid hydrocarbons (creosote). If the temperature of the charring retort cylinder is maintained at a temperature of 300 to 320 degrees C then all of the creosote will be retained in the char.

If the temperature rises above 320 degrees C the creosote will begin to flash off the char. At 350 degrees C you will flash off all of the creosote produced by the thermal break down of the lignin in the wood.

Without Cresote you have no moisture other than that which is absorbed by the potasium carbonate in the fouling - and then only if the humidity is 30% or more.

Moisture helps keep the fouling soft. No moisture then you have hard fouling. Hard fouling means bad shooting.

Again, most manufactures, with the exception of the Swiss, purchase thier charcoal. In the days of old most manufactures produced thier own charcoal. For instance the old Oriental Powder Mills down the road from me had extensive kilns and drying sheds.

Water purity is a factor as well. Distilled water is recommended.

All these factors apply. But don't take it as a blanket statement that all old powders were good - there were bad ones just as there are today. I have report to the Army lamenting the fact the US manufactures couldn't make powder as good as the Europeans.

The problem until recently is there has been no market drive to produce a better powder. Dupont then GOEX got away for years producing low grade powder. Their biggest customer was and still is the US govt. Commercial sales are an added bonus. Incidently they are the ONLY supplier to the military by legislation which limits the purchase of black powder to only powder produced here in the US. I guess non-competative single vendor bids still exist!

However, with the advent of the BPCR game and Swiss coming onto the market (ironiclly GOEX was the original importer) they have had to step up to the plate. (Witness GOEX Express).

Now we have KIK and Black Diamond (Brazil)and Schuezten is up-grading thier powder once again. This is all good from a quality improvement stand point.

Best regards,

Terry