doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Gun ID help- is this a Westley Richards??

Ky from the pictures on Gunbroker you can say it's not safe to shoot ?....bAlogna

I thought I had seen near everything,but this is a Mystery.
Sure looks English ,but I have to guess Belgium, late 1860's

Joe-

Good question on the 'other gun'
I was supporting my sense of what extensive engraving with a lot of patina looks like.
I hear the rhetoric in the question, and you make a good point to stick to the gun the OP is asking aobut.
I'll keep it clean from here.

I agree on the Lancaster comment.




--Tinker

I certainly have seemed to stir up some debate about this old gun. Well, to add to the mix, the seller emailed this to me in response to a request for pictures:

"I am not certain if I can get a photo to you. However in looking at the underside of the barrels on the rib is : 822 843. Other marks on the barrels are : 18.5 , CJ or GJ , a crown with the letters TJ beneath and a couple of other marks I can't make out. I have no knowledge of the maker, Richards . The name appears on both sides of the lock plates and on the barrel all of which can be seen in the photos."

I realize that this is an old double, and I probably would not shoot if I bought it, I just like old doubles- the older the better! I have several other English made doubles from the 1880's (the best date I can guess at) from small time makers such as WH James, but none of this type.

claycrusher1900:

18.5mm more than likely is the metric designation for 12 bore. The "CJ" or "GJ" is probably the Belgian script intertwined "EL". The "crown" could be the star of the controller's mark. All above leads to a guess of Belgian origin post 1853(but could be much later) without a pic. How about a pic of it just open? I will agree that the fences are from the pinfire era similar to what one would see on a circa 1870 Purdey pinfire or a John Blissett. I believe the Charles Lancaster had shallow indentations in the standing breech to accept the brass based shotshell and the barrels moved forward slightly before dropping.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lancaster's actions and general level of quality are in a completely different world than what we're seeing here with the gun on the gunbroker site.
The hammers do appear to be 'lancasterey' in shape, the way they hit the (and I'm convinced of this) conversion-to-central fire strikers somewhat resembles 'lancasteresque' function.

I agree with Raimey that the marks described sound like european, not british, and point very suspiciously to Belgium.
This ain't the first Belgian gun that's had the word 'London' washed in gold or silver on the rib!

Without any doubt, if only from the grainy photos on the auction site, the gun is not a westley richards product.

Furthermore it does not seem as if the seller has a very firm grasp on what he has, how to handle it, or how to describe it's form, function, or condition.


Crusher, if you like it, bid it up till it's yours.
I think the Gunbroker site will keep the auction open indefinitely if there is a challenge in the last few minutes, so you can make sure you get it if you're there at the end of the bidding.




--Tinker

Looks interesting to me and worth a closer inspection. Certainly not a pin fire conversion and any good Gunsmith should be able to tell you if it is in proof or not. If it is a W. Richards of Liverpool why not give them a call with the serial number as he does have full records. http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/index.shtml Lagopus.....

Tinker, not to get off track but that double rifle of yours patterns nicely at fifty yards!! Who's the maker???

T58-

It's a Tolley from ~1883, 500-450 3-1/2" Magnum BPE (NA&A)
The forend is held with a wedge, as it was the day it was delivered.

Lagopus, just as I cannot prove that the shotgun in question is definitely a conversion from pinfire, there is no way you can prove that is not.

There is no Certainly with that piece...


--Tinker

Tinker, last question, don't mean to steal this thread.
Did you have to 'work up' a load for that double to get that type of accuracy or was that the loading the rifle was regulated for???