doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com NEW RUGER

OK. this is what Jim actually said for real. NOwhere was the word "bargain" used nor any mention of how good a deal it was. that came later with your reference to how good a deal a $3k gold label was because they sold for more. that's why i said your post said an entirely different thing from what Jim said. and it's still an entirely different thing.

as to intrinsically, each person has to figure that out for himself. example: i once had a very nice BSW box lock. double triggers, splinter f/e, extractors, quite decent wood, xlnt + condition, case hardened, about 50% coverage engraving, tight as a tick. i think it set me back around $1300. at the same time, i could have gotten a bog standard bottom of the line m21 with wood off a skid and no engraving for about 2.5x that amount. or there was also on the rack a parker (i forget the grade) that was essentially identical in features, remaining finish and even less engraving that i think was pushing $5k (i thought overpriced but it sold a short time thereafter so who knows).

now, between the 3 guns, to me the BSW was INTRINSICALLY superior. far better looking (subjective), more remaining finish than the winchester (not subjective) and really was quite the equal of the parker in just how well it was finished out and engraved and real close in wood (maybe a skosh better) but was 1/4 the money. and i guarantee it'd last just as long as either oof the other 2 w/ proper care and attention.

INTRINSICALLY means "buy the gun/not the name" which gets bandied about a lot but nobody ever does it. the parker and the 21 were higher because they were a parker and a 21. not because they were intrinsically better guns in any way, form or fashion. except later resale value but if that's one's primary criteria in buying a gun, that's a pretty shallow depth of field.

each shooter has to figure it out for himself, what's important and what he'll pay for and what's worth the investment to him. mostly what i see is buy the name and not the gun.

roger

Well Roger, intrinsic is a real word with a definition based on common usage. Instead of using it to describe something inherent in the object, you use it to describe an extrinsic value residing in an individual's judgement. Not unlike Humpty Dumpty saying to Alice in Through The Looking Glass that when he uses a word "... it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

Value isn't intrinsic -- it's always what it's worth to someone.

Jay

I think that what Gunflint Charlie says about "intrinsic value" is true in our everyday market-driven world. In a survival world (as much of the world still is), there IS intrinsic value, for example the machete that will break when you need to fell a tree HAS less intrinsic value than the one that won't. Hopefully none of us will find ourselves in a situation where we have to judge our guns like that. But we might.

well, checking webster on line i find:

Extrinsic: a: not forming part of or belonging to a thing : EXTRANEOUS b: originating from or on the outside; especially : originating outside a part and acting upon the part as a whole

Intrinsic: 1 a: belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing

i've no clue what you thought i meant but i know exactly what i meant when i wrote it. and in the example i cited, the BSW had INTRINSIC value because of the way it was built and finished compared to the other 2, especially so when taking into account the cost. EXTRINSIC would - to me - be value ascribed to something independent of it's form/function, i.e. it's name. something extraneous (note the synonym in the definition) to the guns design and build quality. something that adds nothing to it's ability to function.

intrinsic is form and function. it's able to do what is going to be required of it in a reliable, competent manner. that's where the personal aspect comes in. someone may want a particular item because of the name on the barrels and never expect it to do anything but sit in a rack. others may not care what name is on the barrels as long as it can take the heavy use of competition trap or the weather of a duck blind or whatever the need it's filling. for some people a marlin model 90 could have greater intrinsic value than a purdey.

People in this area aren't concerned with the weight of a gun whether they are on the range or hunting. (Unless it is a trap gun and they want a gun with weight) Single select trigger. BTFE. Nice wood. I don't ever even remember that many people asking how much a gun weighs. This is America around here. Grand American country. Winchester Model 12 country. Model 21 country. Trap country. People who shoot skeet just get a gun with short, open choked barrels and shoot. Who ever heard of asking how much does that gun weigh? Not around here. Most people wouldn't know the difference between a seven pound gun and an eight pound gun around here and not many care. It's like when someone asks me how long is the barrel on that gun? Does it matter it looks short to me. Two feet give er take. Is there a difference between 26" and 28"? If you're a good shooter, you can pick it up and break targets. And around here, your barrels get hot at skeet in 90* weather. When you go from #1 stand to #2 stand and shoot eight times in a minute or two, they get hot real fast. And when you get around to #6 and #7 and shoot another eight quick shots, they stay pretty hot. Sunday, I shot two rounds and those barrels were burning through my gloves when I held the gun by the barrels. You could not have held onto them without gloves. That' why people around here say the heck with the weight, give me a BTFE!!

Right after this gun came out, I was talking with the ruger rep at a big gun shop in my area and he was telling me then that this "project" would not be on the shelf long. I think if they kept the price to 1500 and offered it in 20ga they would have had a hit.

Backpipe playing kilt wearing laddies must be buying em. Come on boyz, btfe belongs on square box thingy and not on round body game gun! GL action does provide wonderful steel canvas for Kenny Hunt to work on.

chux- they could not afford to make them for $1500.00. They can't afford to make them for the price they are at now...... And Jager-you are right. A BTFE does belong on a square box thingy (we call them AMERICAN guns) and not the little game guns that they use in England by the people who love skimpy little forends. That is what I have been saying all along.

I looked at nearly new condition late production (Yankee made) ICD 4 Grade for <1k more of that $3800 someone suggested for that Buger. It's obvious that unlike Ruger employees Lamboy's boyz did a lot more than just reach for another action out of standard parts bin! Hard to believe but GENUINE Ithaca made up for short period to early 2000s (I fear it's gone forever now) can be had for < cretain Jap-made repro. Have Americans completely lost their minds?

"People in my area, and "people in this area."
You live in Cleveland...right Jimmy!
There has never been a gun better designed than the English gamegun for shooting game. Your talking about games ol'boy!
Think of the estate brace counts, and then the hey-day of the M21&12 where you'd be lucky to see twenty wild birds per season.
Thats why we see these quail/pheasant/duck groups today.
I bet the M21&12 saw more rabbits than birds!