doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT = shipping an non operating handgun

I wasnt making a direct compariison, just illustrating the lengths that BATFE has gone to mess with people. They did use the 8 hours in amchine shop as being 'readily convertable" for turning a semi into a full. I wasnt directly conecting the DEWAT process either. All I was saying is that in your mind it may be destroyed but in theirs it may not be so get hem to tell you what is okay and whats not.

My point is that with BATFE, there is no logical reasoning behind what they say or do. make sure you get the guys name.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/27cfr_part478.pdf
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Above is the 'Commerce in Firearms' (GCA68)
TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
In it you'll find this:
Sect 478.11 Definitions...
"Unserviceable firearm. A firearm
which is incapable of discharging a shot
by means of an explosive and is incapable
of being readily restored to a firing condition."
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"incapable of being readily restored..."???
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Also from BATF Ruling #76-25 re: proper method for destroying a damaged firearm by a licensee,,in part reads (last sentence mostly of interest here):
'...Held, a licensee who purchases a
damaged firearm for the purpose of
salvaging parts therefrom shall enter
receipt of the firearm in his firearms
acquisition and disposition record. If
the frame or receiver of the firearm is
damaged to the extent that it cannot
be repaired, or if the licensee does
not desire to repair the frame or receiver,
he may destroy it and show
the disposition of the firearm in his
records as having been destroyed.
Before a firearm may be considered
destroyed, it must be cut, severed or
mangled in such a manner as to render
the firearm completely inoperative
and such that it cannot be restored to
an operative condition....'

GregSY, As a chocolate lover, If I was ever elected president, I would eat that pistol after I had your butt shipped to Guantanimo. C. R. Sides; I would err on the side of caution and not ship that frame without written BATF approval. But please tell us what load you can stuff into a .25 ACP that will blow off the rear of the frame.

Kutter:
While your disposition description above is accurate it really applies to someone who has a license. I don't think that's the case with the person who started this thread. If this Colt is as I expect an old unregistered C&R firearm in the possesion of someone without a license he can do whatever he want's with it.
However if he sells it to a licensed dealer I would think most would enter the serial # into their records to be on the safe side. It would be interesting if one of the dealers who posts here would comment from their perspective of handling this.
Jim

I ama dealer and gunsmith and have posted twice regarding this. Like I said, dont take my word or nayone elses. BATFE likes to interpret the rules. get the word form them. Regardless of being a dealer or non dealer, you can get caught up in this.

I maybe missing the point but i dont undertsand why you are seeking validation/information from a dealer and not ATF.

the lastpost says you want to hear from a dealer.
call BATFE.

Not trying to be curt or anything but my word or anyone elses will not help you in court.

I had no idea you were a dealer and don't see where you indicated that was the case in any previous post in this thread. I simply asked the question as to what a dealer would do if a firearm in this condition came into their possession inre. to record keeping? Just what that has to do with the BATF is unclear to me.
Jim

They don't it get Brian...

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I am an FFL dealer (for the last 35 years) and that is how you deal with the situation. An unlicensed person who attempts to transfer the firearm to another plays by the same rules with the addition of the FFL involved where necessary. GCA68 was written as the law of the land for everyone. It's not just an FFL dealers/gunsmiths handbook. There is no such thing as just an 'old unregistered C&R firearm' that falls outside of the purview of the BATFE and the Federal Firearms Laws. The original question was about the transfer of a damaged firearm (handgun)to another person by shipping it to them. That's BATFE territory. Determining the serviceability of the gun is key to this and the BATFE sets that criteria,,no one else. That's why this concerns them.
The info I quoted is what the GCA lists as their definition as 'unserviceable. The more recent BATFE ruleing included language on what a FFL/gunsmith need to do to satisfy the BATFE definition of 'unserviceable'. Other than NFA/Importation rulings for those types of weapons, there are no other definitions of 'unserviceable' that I'm aware of.
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If someone really cares enough to get an opinion from the BATFE, contact the Technologies Branch with some pics of the thing and they'll tell you. They are the only/last/and final word on these things. Next stop is the court room ..
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And. yes, if an FFL were to have that pistol come into their possession, it would deffinetly have to be logged into their book as it is still a firearm, although damaged. Ruling# 76-25 addressed that.

Thanks for the clarification Kutter as I am NOT an FFL holder but have been collecting and observing for many years. I have seen, as an example, the following recently at a gun show. A pile of old clunker 22 barreled receivers that looked like someone had used them as tent stakes. I asked the dealer if these had to be transferred with a 4473 and his response was "Nah not in this condition". This show is big and there are usually many BATF agent in attendance working undercover. I was at this show for multipe days and these clunkers remained on the dealers table so the BATF had to see them.
I guess I'll have to remain in the "They just don't get it category" as the expert in his own mind indicated above.
I also saw another dealer sell a Luger with no paperwork after I had looked at it. It apparentely had been cut apart and then welded together to make a display piece and no parts including the magazine were movable. However it was a complete gun at least externally
Jim

I was selling Commercial mauser actions for a number of years (until they got cut off by remington) and have had dealers tell me they didnt need to send an FFL since it wasnt a complete firearm!! An FFL doesnt make you smart or knowledgable of BATFE rules thats for sure. Sort of like people thinking that Cops are fireamrs experts and expert shots.
Yes you will find dealers selling old stuff and telling you "nah, you dont need to do a 4473 for this". I guess some people are have dumb luck. The law is the law.

There are lots of stories about ignorant dealers that dont know the rules. i could go on. But my point in all of my responses and the same for others here is: get clarification from ATF.