doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Army & Navy CSL, and 2 1/2" Chamber questions

Thank you for the email address.

Photos!

First the proofs.

Is the diamond with the 12 over a G a duplicate mark to the number 12 stamped at the breech mouth, or is it something relating to the charge of powder? Or?



The top view of the action. Sorry about all the carpet. At least I got my toes out of the way, eh?



I'll get an email off to the U of G in the next day or so. I will report back the results, certainly.

I was noting that Winchester and Federal are both loading 1oz loads at lower pressures, but sadly, they do not look like ammunition that is readily available, from a volume sales perspective. I'll have to have a look for it when I get into the city for a day trip.
It might be worth a try.

Cheers
Trev

Hello Trev,
I do happen to own a virtual clone of your A&N.
I have on my desk #68327 with Webley # 98638. It's peculiar that the A&N #s are 52 off while the Webley #s are ~15,000 off. So much for predictability...
The action is the same and the engraving is very similar. This model is not depicted in my 1922 Webley catalog, but it is definitely a Webley action.
My chambers measure very close to 2 5/8", but that does not mean that your gun's chambers are not originals.
I will ask for the records on my gun as well.
Best regards,
WC

I got to fiddling with a ruler, as well as my blocked open AA hull and a dial caliper, and best as I can measure,the chamber is a tiny bit short of 2 3/4". The AA Hull measures almost exactly 68mm, so, the chamber is short of the full 70mm that should mean a 2 3/4", but long(ish) for a 2 1/2".
That does not take into account, the variances and "extra" room, that would have been allowed for in the chambering, to cover the eventuality of different length cartridges.
I expect that this means that the chamber is indeed a correct 2 1/2" chamber and unmolested, and that there should be not much to worry about, provided that I can keep it from falling into the hands of those that believe "more is better" and would load it up with high brass steel shot goose loads <shudder>.

Must get the hole gauges into the chamber, and get a measurement of the diameter, and make a decent fitting plug, or sort out my supply of low temp alloy, and make a cast of the chamber.

I was digging around the past posts here and saw the rebuild done to an A&N by a gent from Ontario. WOW!

Cheers
Trev

Trev, that's definitely the "Anson" model, exactly like mine, and less than 150 numbers apart. Proofs . . . those are exactly what you would expect to find for a British gun made in Birmingham between 1925-54. The 12 over a C in a diamond simply indicates it's a 12 gauge and the chambers are shorter than 3". The "choke" means that the barrel has at least a minimum amount of choke; going from recall here, but I think it means more than .006 or something like that.

Using a Galazan chamber gauge, the chambers on my A&N's measure about as dead on at 2 1/2" as you're going to get.

Powder charge . . . Unfortunately, all you can tell from the proofs is that at the time the gun was built, it could be used safely with any 2 1/2" British shell containing 1 1/8 oz shot. I have been reloading standard 2 3/4" hulls to appropriate low pressures and shooting them in my guns--a lot--for the past 3 years. Mostly 7/8 oz target loads, but some 1 oz and 1 1/8 oz hunting loads. No problems whatsoever.

The action is clearly a W&S "Proprietary", except for the cross bolt. The 1914 and 1939 W&S catalogues show it as a screw-grip action. The engraving pattern would fall somewhere beween the very plain Grade 3 and the fancier Grade 2. I imagine A&N had the purchasing power to get the cross bolt and brand specific engraving. Perhaps A&N staff believed cross bolted guns sold better than screw grip guns or there was a ptice/profit difference. It most certainly came from the factory as a sound and servicable gun.

Here is the same basic gun as a screw grip and in Grade 2 get-up for James Woodward (sold in 1910).

As a follow up to the story.

I built myself a chamber gauge, .774" dia, and marked out in 1/4 inch increments more or less matching what lengths of shells are available.
I turned the gauge from some scrap plexiglass that I had on hand.

When dropped into the chambers, the 2 3/4" line sits proud of the chamber by about 1/16", or about 2mm. Pretty much what I had measured before.

I still have not heard back from the U of G Archivist.

How long is usual for the turn around time from contact?

Cheers
Trev

larry Brown is right on with the period of proof. The 1 1/8 is the mark applied to indicate it has standard 2 1/2" chambers. If it had 2 3/4" chambers it would have the 1 1/4 oz. mark. The chamber may measure slightly longer due to the angle of the forcing cones or, if someone has lengthened them which would render them out of proof under British proof law. I think that you will have a standard 2 1/2 " chambered gun. Just an adition; if it was meant for 3" cartridges it would have an 'L' after the 12 over C in the diamond to indicate 'Long' chambers or the 1 1/2 oz. mark. Lagopus.....

Rocketman, it's straight out of the 1933-34 A&N catalog as an "Anson" model. Same crossbolt, same engraving. And the order sheet on my guns is clearly marked "W&S" (Webley & Scott).

Thanks, Larry. The "Anson Model" does not appear in either the 1914 or 1939 catalogues. Does your gun have the semi-circular stock inlet at the junction of the tang and the action fences? Also, does it have a screw slightly behind and below the hinge pin? I haven't found these two features illustrated on any guns other than the Proprietary --- but, then, neither have I seen a Proprietary with a cross bolt illustrated, either.

Lagopus,
Slight correction:
The mark for chambers not less than 3" would be "LC", not CL (I was very pleasantly surprised to find the LC mark on a recent purchase...); was the service charge weight for the LC/3" really a whopping 1 1/2oz?!
Sorry, thread drift...

Nice old gun; great to have a family provenance, and great to have access to such detailed information on the individual gun's "birth". (there, I'm back on!)
RG