doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Smith & Wesson Double Guns

I am not in the "target market", but for that kind of money I remain a devoted fan
of pre-owned doubles.

JC(AL)

Tom,
Thanks for all your info. Hope you noticed Steven Dodd Hughes offer above. Just stay on the phone with Smith and Wesson until you talk them out of the short barrel option (26"). Nobody wants that length any more. NOBODY! The 27" And 29" sounds much better, and 28" and 30" is better yet. They need to wake up and smell the coffee on this. And don't let them forget the 16 ga.

I do hope they will offer a semi-pistol grip and small semi-beavertail. The trade is awash in straight-gripped, splinter forend "game guns". A good example of this is the Parker Repro market. A 28" beavertail, pistol grip gun (especially with double triggers) will sell so quickly you wonder what happened. They need to listen to the enthusiasts...
JR

Hi, Steven! Long time . . . .

Ted, I think they make guns in that $2,000 to $3,000 range because they think they can sell them. You do have many choices. You can buy new doubles from about two grand to a hundred grand, and you will have exactly what you want somewhere in that range. Why get upset when someone offers a gun at any particular price point?

Tom,

I traded for a Turkish-made 20 ga Khan at a gun show as an attempt to see if I would like shooting an O/U, having shot SxS's all of my life. After <1000 rounds at the trap range, one of the ejectors broke. I was unsuccesful in getting any response from them via their website email links. I was able to get the part, in the white, with the help of a nephew living in Izmir while visiting there this spring. A local gunsmith finished and installed it for $50, and I have already shot another 500 rounds without incident. The jury is out on how long this gun will hold up though. The ejectors and most of the action appear to be castings, which is not necessarily an inferior process-for all those who are interested in a good general discussion of castings vs. forging, I suggest checking out www/sfsa.org/sfsa/pubs/cvf/ecs.html

Upon visiting with a few local gunshop owners in Izmir, I found that Huglu and Sarsilmaz are considered the best quality guns produced and sold in Turkey (none of them had even heard of Khan). One dealer said that was because the barrels are manufactured from European steel, exact source unknown, as opposed to Turkish steel. Huglu of course has been active in the U.S. market for a number of years now, I would guess with limited success. Sarsilmaz' website claims they have been producing guns since the 1880's and that they currently are the 3rd largest producer of small arms in Europe, their main production facility address actually being given as Kaynasli, Duzce, which is on the Asian side of Turkey. Perhaps they make this claim based upon the geographic location of their sales market. The area around Konya, in the middle-southern region of Turkey has at least a dozen or more small arms manufacturing plants...some even claiming to employ all of the village citizens, reminiscent of the early oil towns in the eastern U.S.

Whatever configuration of fit, finish or embellishment S&W puts on these new guns, if the steel going into the barrels and actions is not up to the task, why spend any amount of money for them? And, if there warranty issues after the sale, who is going take care of fixing your gun and at what cost?

best,

skatr2

Thanks for the post. It's a very interesting one.

My stats may help people understand my thoughts on this subject. I'm a 50 year old who has been an avid hunter and shooter since I was 10. Until recently my income was modest so affording a gun in the $2-3,000 was out of the question. I shot Rem. 870s, Benelli M-1 and an old Browning BT-99. I began working on and researching old SxSs about 2 years ago when I started to refinish and repair a Grade 2 Ithaca Lewis that was in my fathers gun case forever. I've worked on a couple other domestic doubles over the last 2 years. This year I paid $2,500 for a slightly used B Rizini O/U 12/20 gauge, 2 barrel set. This was more than I have ever spent for a gun.

Now for my opinions. I think a good quality SxS in the $2,000 to $3,000 price range is great. Yes there are a few others out there in this price range but my feeling is competition breeds quality and better pricing. Failure to meet quality requirements means you will get gobbled up the competition.

My next gun will probably be a new gun or used vintage gun in the $2,000-$4,000 range. I still find it difficult to spend $4,000+ on a gun that problably won't break more targets or kill more birds although I can see my taste becoming more expensive with time and income. So when I spend $2,000+ on a gun it's because I like it and want it rather than need it. I also think there are a lot of guys out there that are upper-middle income that would stretch to get a good gun in the $2-3,000 price range like the RBL.

As far as my personnal preferences, single trigger, choke tubes, pistol or POW grip, splinter forend, good quality - figured wood, case colored with no or simple engraving of good quality, 14 3/4 LOP with a small pad, extractors or ejectors. The things I hate on guns is poor wood with a bad finish, crappy engraving and poor fit of components.

A couple other points - Turkey is not an enemy of the USA. I have not been impressed by other Turkish made guns I have seen and although the S&W name has been out there a long time I may have to change my current thinking of them as a pistol only manufacturer.

I think only one person has hit the point I consider one of the very most important: Weight, and its distribution and therefore balance -- MOI (moment of inertia) actually. That "weight between the hands" feel. A "lively" game gun -- and after all, most of today's shotgun game shooting simulates lively game shooting (except trap, and I don't see this as a product for the trap or pigeon shooting segment. Of course this requires the gauge-appropriate frames already stated several times.

Also of huge importance to real performance is proper fit to the individual's dimensions. Unfortunately many American shooters don't realize the importance of this but most of those who shoot really well -- particularly at game or similar targets, do. If you make stock dimensions to order, then the choice of grip style is open too. And of course, also the choice of wood grade.

About equal in importance is quality -- actual throughout, as well as initially-perceived. The latter certainly includes fit, finish and choice by the manufacturer of suitable materials and finishes.

I personally think a gun offering these features could compete in a crowded field at a relatively low price point -- perhaps not exactly the price cited, but close enough. (And hugely important competitors in that crowded field are a myriad of used, good guns.)

1. I'd want to see steel/tungsten compatible bores on all gauges 20 and larger. Each year more and more acreage is designated no-tox and a lot of folks hunt combo seasons when the right chamber might be lead 6's for roosters and the left charged with tungsten 5's in case a greenhead erupts from a creek. Of course you'd need 2 triggers to make this work which would be my next request. Also no-tox capable guns would have broader appeal as a "one gun that does it all" concept.

2. PLEASE make it in 16, but don't bother if it's on a 12 ga frame. Remington still wonders why their 7 1/4 lb 16 ga 870s and 1100s didn't sell like hotcakes. They'll probably still be wondering 10 yrs from now.

3. If they want to make a 26" brush model, fine. But they'll sell a lot more in the 28-30" range. I like your idea of 27 and 29 as a good choice.

4. PLEASE make the standard LOP at least 14 3/4". The average American hunter is NOT 5'9" any more. Hasn't been in 30 or 40 years. And it's a lot easier to remove a little wood than to try and match grain with a filler.

Just remembered, Spain was our enemy in 1899. I'd better sell my AyA, Arrieta, Sarasqueta, and Uggie............NOT!

Tom, thanks for asking,
Pete

If you're going to start asking what individuals want you're going to get individual answers. Straight, pistol, POW, splinter, beavertail, single-double triggers, fixed chokes-tubes, 12-16-20-28-.410..26"-28"-30".. So what are you going to do, add up the answers and put out a single model that is comprised of the winner in each category?

Want a winner? Put out a gun that will sell for under 2k that will let each individual choose their own configuration. Just like Ithaca, and Fox and Parker and Smith did years ago. Early on they could do it with their low grades and then to some extent to their "field grades" and low cost guns.

I imagine with CNC machining it should be fairly easy, keep a bunch of different sized frames on hand, different length barrels to put on, buzz out a stock, send it out the door. Oversimplified, yes but certainly possible. But that won't be done, too much of an investment of capital for start-up, financial suicide.

I'm with JayCee, for that money I'll find a pre-owned gun.

To meet a $2,100 price point on a gun like that you're going to get two pieces of electrical conduit taped to a broomstick with a ball peen hammer supplied to hit the primers...

You're assuming anyone wants the opinion of a hobbyist/amateur.