doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Smith & Wesson Double Guns

We are talking about this on a thread titled "The Next RBL," but it seems to me that this title might be missed by some.

If it's okay with the moderators, I'll start a new thread.

My question: What would you like to see in a new double gun? Smith & Wesson has announced a new line of shotguns, including S/S, O/U, and autoloaders. These are to be made in a new factory in Turkey. That is, they are not guns currently being made and then just imported. These are new guns.

So, what would you like to see in a new shotgun offering. Which features are must haves, which are like-to haves, and which are "they better not do this" items?

What price point are we talking about?

Tom,
1)Functional durability - this means the materials and design (good steel and good design)

2)Form - appropriate weight and dimensions for the gauge/use i.e. gamegun weight and balance for gameguns, etc.

3)Quality of manufacture - this means the high quality execution of the design - close tolerances, good machine finishes and fit internally, and good external fit and finish so cherished by many here.

If those three things can be met to my satisfaction, I'd like a boxlock, 16ga ejector, double trigger, straight stock, semi beavertail forend, with no engraving and an option for beautiful wood, weighing between 6 1/4 lbs and 6 1/2 lbs. After that, a 20g, 28g and .410 . I have no use for a 12g if a light 16g is available. But it would be hard to imagine offering a line of guns that excludes the 12g.

The grade 1 doubles, 20 gauge, will carry a suggested retail price of about $2100, they say.

Trigger plate lockwork. Rounded body.

Grade II are slated for the second year.

1) A gun designed and built by American hands. No illegal aliens in the plants, either. Turkey is a country which is semi-hostile towards the US.

2) No single trigger for me. Two barrels, two triggers.

3) Option of barrel lengths from 26" to 32". Fixed chokes are fine with me.

4) No recoil pads. But if there has to be one, for the ladies, a Silvers type.

5) Customer's choice of gauges 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410. The smaller bores should be on smaller frames.

6) Styling should closely resemble fine English guns - not Spanish or Turkish intretations thereof.

7) Straight or pistol grip options, beavertail or splinter options.


But most of all...I feel S&W is answering a question which no one has really asked. Does the market need another manufacturer? Not really.

What Chuck and Greg said-pulleeeezzze tell them we want a 16
No Marlin pseudo-LC or garish engraving-make it an honest 'hunter's gun' our fathers or grandfathers would have been proud (or at least not embarassed) to carry. Almost sounds like the Ruger GL without the quality control issues and which just didn't quite look right with those 12g tubes.

The only void in the market is a SxS target gun. Everything else is covered, indeed saturated.

What I would buy if it was available in a quality gun is a 30" barrel single trigger, slim beaver, pistol grip 12ga SxS weighing in at a little over 8 pounds for use as sporting clays gun. Give me a 14 3/4 pull length, a little cast, a recoil pad similar to Browning's XS series guns with chokes of .015 in each barrel. I would closely look at such a thing even if made in Turkey by Azimov's robots. It needs to have useable triggers.

Double triggers. If it has to be a single trigger at least don't combine the barrel selector with the safety - the one gun I used to own with that design gave me fits.

Fixed chokes on hunting guns are fine. "Oddball" choices, like Skeet/Mod would be good.

My personal preference would be for a POW grip and a semi-BT fore end. More importantly, I'd expect this to be a quality piece - something my grandchildren would be using many decades from now (assuming the PC crowd hasn't turned all firearms into scrap by then)

I wish S & W luck - at 2 grand or so, there's a lot of other options for the gun buyer out there.

I'm not sure why Tom is asking as I'm sure S&W marketing firms have been studying the market to "death" or they would not be contemplating the venture in the first place. However if their "focus groups" are like Carl Rove's, they need lots of help! Personally I like the graceful lines of a sidelock but understand the ease of manufacturing a boxlock(also the inherent strength of the stock). I believe "less is more" hence simplicity over complex triggers, selectors, ejectors-2 triggers and extractors. Skip the engraving, just simple color case coloring. Fine wood, no Berreta faux picture wood. Personally POW grip and small beavertail forend. Options for straight stock and barrel lengths from 26-32". Gauge appropriate frame. Screw in chokes would be acceptable if they were of the Briley/Teague(long) type. Chrome lined barrels make cleaning easier and blacking the outside faster than bluing(cheaper too). Anyway enoug rattling on. Dr. BILL

I appreciate S&W asking us the shooting public what we want, but do not think a SS made in Turkey will fill the bill. I have shot and worked on some guns made in Turkey, and the quality and craftmanship is poor. Make a sidelock like the 1920's L.C. Smith long-range shotguns in 3 inch and I will buy one or two. I won't buy one made by an emeny of the United States. So Turkey is out Tom.

Regards
M.L. Hipp

Turkey isn't exactly an 'enemy'. They are a Muslim country (99%+) but they are a democracy. They have found it necessary more than once to take up arms internally to assure that status. If the philoposy of the Turks could be expanded in that region, it would make things MUCH easier on the USA.

Good info, all.

I do understand that those who have had bad luck with guns made in Turkey have a bad taste about them.

However, I think you may feel differently when you see these. The internals are a pretty as the outside of the gun.

If this were a $10,000 gun, it would be easy to do everything.

At two grand, you are not going to have a sidelock. It is a nice trigger plate action, with good color case hardened receiver. Barrels of deep blue. Single trigger for now. No barrel selector. Non-automatic safety. Barrels of 26 and 28-inch length, for now. I suggested 27 and 29 inch barrels, but I'm strange that way.

Trigger pull on the pre-production guns is heavy, but they say they are aware of that, and will have it right when the guns hit the shelves.

Future gauges will be on gauge-specific frames. That is, a different frame for the .410, the 28, etc.

I also asked that they bring in some left-handed stocks and make them available for swap, even if it does take a modest charge. Without the option of a left-handed stock, I can't use it. I think the stock has a through-bolt, making bending the stock problematic. I discovered that on a J.P. Sauer boxlock.

What would you think of a waterfowling model? Heavier, 3-inch chambers in a 12-gauge? Barrels suitable for steel shot.

As for guns made "by Turkey" or Turkey beign an "enemy" of the U.S. . . . I don't know what to say. This is a gun made by an American company (S&W) in a plant it built overseas.

Now, if you think the market will pay $5,000 for the same gun, just to have it made in the U.S., that's an argument I would have a hard time accepting.

Just thinking out loud here, I own side-by-sides made in the U.S., Belgium, Japan, Germany, and Spain.

Which is or was an enemy of the U.S.?

Hey, it's a personal decision, and anyone's opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

The quality of the guns, however, is factual. I would invite anyone to look at these guns with a critical eye (understaning the price range). They should stand up to comparison with pretty much any $2,000 double I know of.

Have others had a chance to see/shoot the Kimber Valier? It's above $5,000, made in Turkey, and is a nice 7-pin sidelock.

Not to stray too far into politics, but Turkey is like many foreign countries - they are not spouting off too loudly against the US right now, but if/when the time comes they won't hesitate to join with whatever anti-US force develops.

During WWII, many arms factories were converted to military arms production. That's part of why we were able to win. When Turkey joins the enemy side, will they have any problem with us converting the Turkey plant to arms production so we can use those arms to fight them? I suspect so.

Having sold a number of CZ(Huglu)in my shop to very satisfied customers I think Turkey can produce, at the aforemention price point-$2,000.00 a very maketable/salable SxS. These are not, NOT original L.C. Smiths/Parkers/etc. How they will compete with Tony Galazan's RBL is a real question. US made vs. overseas???? More "engraving", excellent wood to metal fit, outstanding wood, choice of single or double trigger, ejectors, on and on, at the relative same price point. The S&W decision on triggers is IMO a real put off. Two barrels are for the choice of two chokes in the order necessary, not some arbitrary engineers idea of what/how I shoot. Regarding politics/allies/friends, it is well to remember that governments have none, only "interests", and those are of the "moment". Best, Dr. BILL

Hi Tom,
I'd like to see something NOT made in Turkey, Russia or Iran. I'm tired of reading the usual crap about being "a great buy, for the money"! What else would make it a great buy? That's like saying a Mossberg is a very handsome gun, for it's looks. A SxS for $400 will be a piece of crap, no matter where it's from. Give us more $2000 doubles from Japan or Spain, two triggers and no da@#ed automatic safety. L'es le bon temps roulette! JL

I respect your opinion about quality and craftsmanship but don't write off the Turks, ML. Middle East politics is a long game. The Turks were not of much help to the U.S. going into Iraq but could be of assistance in getting out. They were splendid allies in Korea. I don't think one was taken prisoner.

Well, I'll fess up right now, I'm a guy who was out with a Mossberg today (forgot my bismuth at my friends house, who couldn't make it out hunting at the federal wildlife area that is non-tox only, and had to settle for a Mossy 500 and steel 4s-and, yes, I had a great time). And, I feel I've always been a 'sorta "big tent" gun kinda guy, with an appreciation for the good stuff, and for the stuff that is just for meat on the table.
But, I'm tired of marketing people picking that same $2000-3000 price point and sticking it up my "consumer" ass with few or no options that matter in the long run. You can have an RBL in any gauge you want, as long as it's 20, or a Gold Label in everything that is 12.
Who comes up with that as a price point? And why would that individual expect me to be happy with what comes at that price point? My new midsize Chevrolet cost $23,000 and will have rust holes as big as anything else on the road in less than a decade.
I'm a big boy, let me give them a price point, and give me exactly what the hell I want. I'm well aware that the gun that sells for, say, $8000 is going to be much, much nicer(and I've got guns that sold in that price range, or, more, to go with the less than $500 cheapies) give me the option of something better than the marketing/bean counters tell me I can have. I don't need a $2000 new double anymore, been there, done that. Maybe somebody (maybe a lot of somebodys if the "marketing" people are right, but, I sure as hell 'ain't one of them) needs such a gun, but make sure S & W knows to get in line behind all the other $2000 guns that I don't even read the reviews about anymore. I've had it up to here with single trigger, poly finish, hot blued, screw choked, white line spacer, plastic grip capped, double plastic bead, vent rib, 3" chamber, gold duckys, laser checkered, rolled engraving, single gauge offering doubles designed by some marketing degree puke wearing Guci loafers with a cell phone in one hand and a palm pilot in the other, who wouldn't be caught dead buying a hunting license, and built in the third world. Screw that. A beat up Sterlingworth 16 will fly out the door of any pawnshop in the nation at $1000, and the manufacturers today don't have a clue why. Or, how. And that actually makes me sad when I ponder it. When did it become what they want me to buy and at what price point, instead of what I want?
Best,
Ted

I am available for consultation.

Tom,
I'll admit a small prejudice against Turkish made guns - and openly admit it's a prejudice, not based on personal experience but on fear of the unknown/untested - and it has nothing to do with politics or concern that Turkey may convert a SxS factory to nuclear weapons production. My fear is these guns won't survive 10-20,000 shells.

Back to what I want in a new SxS, I'm basically agreeing with the request for a clay target gun config;

• Balance - barrel contours designed by tort lawyers don't balance well IMO,
• An option for long barrels; 30" or 32",
• No bulged muzzles to accomadate fat choke tubes (fixed or thinwalls, either are OK with me),
• Durability - this means proper steel and hardening of parts - polishing of the internals is meaningless in comparison. I think S&W might allay some fears by openly discussing steel types and hardening processes for internal parts,
• No gaudy overblown engraving with little gold plated birds flitting about - keep it simple or leave it off. A little bit of elegant hand work is preferable to 100% coverage of photo-etched. The old superposed grade I is a good example of what I mean.
• Option, or standard!, for a long LOP, The American gun standard of 14 1/4" LOP fits the standard 1930's era American man but us boomers are mostly bigger (Remington, hear me? Probably not, too busy going over re-org plans).
• High grade wood without an epoxy finish. Option is fine.

I don't expect your friends at S&W to provide all those features for $2K.

"When did it become what they want me to buy and at what price point, instead of what I want?"

I don't know, Ted, but with cars it ended when Toyota provided cars we wanted to buy instead of what Detroit wanted us to buy when we didn't know better.

I commend the new guys for making doubles for new and less-discriminating shooters. Over time they'll make a gun for those who know better.

I am not in the "target market", but for that kind of money I remain a devoted fan
of pre-owned doubles.

JC(AL)

Tom,
Thanks for all your info. Hope you noticed Steven Dodd Hughes offer above. Just stay on the phone with Smith and Wesson until you talk them out of the short barrel option (26"). Nobody wants that length any more. NOBODY! The 27" And 29" sounds much better, and 28" and 30" is better yet. They need to wake up and smell the coffee on this. And don't let them forget the 16 ga.

I do hope they will offer a semi-pistol grip and small semi-beavertail. The trade is awash in straight-gripped, splinter forend "game guns". A good example of this is the Parker Repro market. A 28" beavertail, pistol grip gun (especially with double triggers) will sell so quickly you wonder what happened. They need to listen to the enthusiasts...
JR

Hi, Steven! Long time . . . .

Ted, I think they make guns in that $2,000 to $3,000 range because they think they can sell them. You do have many choices. You can buy new doubles from about two grand to a hundred grand, and you will have exactly what you want somewhere in that range. Why get upset when someone offers a gun at any particular price point?

Tom,

I traded for a Turkish-made 20 ga Khan at a gun show as an attempt to see if I would like shooting an O/U, having shot SxS's all of my life. After <1000 rounds at the trap range, one of the ejectors broke. I was unsuccesful in getting any response from them via their website email links. I was able to get the part, in the white, with the help of a nephew living in Izmir while visiting there this spring. A local gunsmith finished and installed it for $50, and I have already shot another 500 rounds without incident. The jury is out on how long this gun will hold up though. The ejectors and most of the action appear to be castings, which is not necessarily an inferior process-for all those who are interested in a good general discussion of castings vs. forging, I suggest checking out www/sfsa.org/sfsa/pubs/cvf/ecs.html

Upon visiting with a few local gunshop owners in Izmir, I found that Huglu and Sarsilmaz are considered the best quality guns produced and sold in Turkey (none of them had even heard of Khan). One dealer said that was because the barrels are manufactured from European steel, exact source unknown, as opposed to Turkish steel. Huglu of course has been active in the U.S. market for a number of years now, I would guess with limited success. Sarsilmaz' website claims they have been producing guns since the 1880's and that they currently are the 3rd largest producer of small arms in Europe, their main production facility address actually being given as Kaynasli, Duzce, which is on the Asian side of Turkey. Perhaps they make this claim based upon the geographic location of their sales market. The area around Konya, in the middle-southern region of Turkey has at least a dozen or more small arms manufacturing plants...some even claiming to employ all of the village citizens, reminiscent of the early oil towns in the eastern U.S.

Whatever configuration of fit, finish or embellishment S&W puts on these new guns, if the steel going into the barrels and actions is not up to the task, why spend any amount of money for them? And, if there warranty issues after the sale, who is going take care of fixing your gun and at what cost?

best,

skatr2

Thanks for the post. It's a very interesting one.

My stats may help people understand my thoughts on this subject. I'm a 50 year old who has been an avid hunter and shooter since I was 10. Until recently my income was modest so affording a gun in the $2-3,000 was out of the question. I shot Rem. 870s, Benelli M-1 and an old Browning BT-99. I began working on and researching old SxSs about 2 years ago when I started to refinish and repair a Grade 2 Ithaca Lewis that was in my fathers gun case forever. I've worked on a couple other domestic doubles over the last 2 years. This year I paid $2,500 for a slightly used B Rizini O/U 12/20 gauge, 2 barrel set. This was more than I have ever spent for a gun.

Now for my opinions. I think a good quality SxS in the $2,000 to $3,000 price range is great. Yes there are a few others out there in this price range but my feeling is competition breeds quality and better pricing. Failure to meet quality requirements means you will get gobbled up the competition.

My next gun will probably be a new gun or used vintage gun in the $2,000-$4,000 range. I still find it difficult to spend $4,000+ on a gun that problably won't break more targets or kill more birds although I can see my taste becoming more expensive with time and income. So when I spend $2,000+ on a gun it's because I like it and want it rather than need it. I also think there are a lot of guys out there that are upper-middle income that would stretch to get a good gun in the $2-3,000 price range like the RBL.

As far as my personnal preferences, single trigger, choke tubes, pistol or POW grip, splinter forend, good quality - figured wood, case colored with no or simple engraving of good quality, 14 3/4 LOP with a small pad, extractors or ejectors. The things I hate on guns is poor wood with a bad finish, crappy engraving and poor fit of components.

A couple other points - Turkey is not an enemy of the USA. I have not been impressed by other Turkish made guns I have seen and although the S&W name has been out there a long time I may have to change my current thinking of them as a pistol only manufacturer.

I think only one person has hit the point I consider one of the very most important: Weight, and its distribution and therefore balance -- MOI (moment of inertia) actually. That "weight between the hands" feel. A "lively" game gun -- and after all, most of today's shotgun game shooting simulates lively game shooting (except trap, and I don't see this as a product for the trap or pigeon shooting segment. Of course this requires the gauge-appropriate frames already stated several times.

Also of huge importance to real performance is proper fit to the individual's dimensions. Unfortunately many American shooters don't realize the importance of this but most of those who shoot really well -- particularly at game or similar targets, do. If you make stock dimensions to order, then the choice of grip style is open too. And of course, also the choice of wood grade.

About equal in importance is quality -- actual throughout, as well as initially-perceived. The latter certainly includes fit, finish and choice by the manufacturer of suitable materials and finishes.

I personally think a gun offering these features could compete in a crowded field at a relatively low price point -- perhaps not exactly the price cited, but close enough. (And hugely important competitors in that crowded field are a myriad of used, good guns.)

1. I'd want to see steel/tungsten compatible bores on all gauges 20 and larger. Each year more and more acreage is designated no-tox and a lot of folks hunt combo seasons when the right chamber might be lead 6's for roosters and the left charged with tungsten 5's in case a greenhead erupts from a creek. Of course you'd need 2 triggers to make this work which would be my next request. Also no-tox capable guns would have broader appeal as a "one gun that does it all" concept.

2. PLEASE make it in 16, but don't bother if it's on a 12 ga frame. Remington still wonders why their 7 1/4 lb 16 ga 870s and 1100s didn't sell like hotcakes. They'll probably still be wondering 10 yrs from now.

3. If they want to make a 26" brush model, fine. But they'll sell a lot more in the 28-30" range. I like your idea of 27 and 29 as a good choice.

4. PLEASE make the standard LOP at least 14 3/4". The average American hunter is NOT 5'9" any more. Hasn't been in 30 or 40 years. And it's a lot easier to remove a little wood than to try and match grain with a filler.

Just remembered, Spain was our enemy in 1899. I'd better sell my AyA, Arrieta, Sarasqueta, and Uggie............NOT!

Tom, thanks for asking,
Pete

If you're going to start asking what individuals want you're going to get individual answers. Straight, pistol, POW, splinter, beavertail, single-double triggers, fixed chokes-tubes, 12-16-20-28-.410..26"-28"-30".. So what are you going to do, add up the answers and put out a single model that is comprised of the winner in each category?

Want a winner? Put out a gun that will sell for under 2k that will let each individual choose their own configuration. Just like Ithaca, and Fox and Parker and Smith did years ago. Early on they could do it with their low grades and then to some extent to their "field grades" and low cost guns.

I imagine with CNC machining it should be fairly easy, keep a bunch of different sized frames on hand, different length barrels to put on, buzz out a stock, send it out the door. Oversimplified, yes but certainly possible. But that won't be done, too much of an investment of capital for start-up, financial suicide.

I'm with JayCee, for that money I'll find a pre-owned gun.

To meet a $2,100 price point on a gun like that you're going to get two pieces of electrical conduit taped to a broomstick with a ball peen hammer supplied to hit the primers...

You're assuming anyone wants the opinion of a hobbyist/amateur.

Geoff -- I do believe that Steven qualifies a LOT higher than hobbyist.

Tom, you'd need to understand the context of the comment in order to appreciate it.

Mr. Hughes feels that non-full time gunsmiths (some that are better craftsmen than he will ever be) are gutting his share of the pie and isn't shy about expressing that opinion both to the gunsmiths and publicly. He's also not shy about maligning these gunsmith's reputations.

He's earned the comment.

I'm looking forward to your article about the new S&W guns.

In the world I live in ideas are the only currency and my money on this one is with Recoil Bob.

It all ties together... In general people and companies and countries earn their reputations. And once people have formed an opinion it is very hard to change their mind. Doesn't matter if you are SDH or S&W or Turkey...

Geoff: You are right. I don't know the context. Must be some history here.

As to the S&W, Turkish guns, etc., subject, I'm not an expert in double guns. I'm a fan who owns a few. Started with a Fox from Stevens. Not very good. Then the Ithaca (SKB) "Quail Special" (20 gauge, 25-inch barrels, straight grip -- I can't hit a barn with it), an old L.C. Smith 20 gauge, Win. M21 skeet gun in 16 ga., another nondescript SKB, Lebeau sidelock, Grulla sidelock, J.P. Sauer boxlock, etc.

I'm still learning. I've hunted with the Ruger Gold Label and the Kimber Valier.

Now that I've shot the S&W guns, I think they are pretty exciting guns for the place in the market where they will land. Whether that translates to actual sales will be determined. I do know that the folks at Smith are committed to making good guns, and they are working hard at it.

I think (but don't know for sure) that these guns will be considerably higher in quality than the norm for Turkish guns. I think we will look back and see these as being in the class of the mid-level Spanish guns, which is pretty good.

But, as I say, we won't know until the guns arrive, a bunch are shot, and we see how they perform and how they stand up to a lot of shooting.

Having new doubles made in a new factory is pretty cool. Anyone who will be at the SHOT Show in Orlando should muscle their way into the booth to see and handle them.

A long time ago a very smart professor in grad school told us that the most important question any business should ask itself before embarking on a new venture is"What business are we in?"
In Smith and Wesson's case the answer is "the design and manufacture of handguns".
In the past when they have ventured out of their field of expertise (with rifle, shotguns, airguns,etc.), they have had mixed results.
I wish them well, but fear they are moving into a crowded field populated by companies such as Beretta and Browning that have years of experience with the shotgun market.

Dear Tom Gresham
Did you ask S&W where the prototypes were made? More than likely here in the good old USA! Why does a company the size of S&W want to go to Turkey and build a plant? What is wrong with building a plant in the USA and putting American workers back to work? As far as you saying that Turkey is not our enemy, they are almost all Muslims and hate anyone who is not. I would love to have a newly manufactured SxS that is high quality made in the USA.

Tell S&W I want a sidelock 3 inch chambers 32 inch barrels with English walnut, pistol grip stock, beaver tail forend, double triggers, two ivory beads (not plastic), no choke tubes, bored Full and Full. I would like the steel to be forged High carbon steel of the highest quality. Made in the USA.

You asked what we want, and the above is it.

American that is tired of having foreign junk shoved down my throat at a price that is unreasonable.

Tell S&W, NO TURKISH JUNK !!!!!!!!
M.L.

Sounds like a similar path...I still have my SKB 280 though like you I doubt I could hit the broad side of a barn from the inside with it any more, and I've owned a few American Classics that I have the same problem with.

I've tried the Gold Label without much success too...

What happens on these boards when a gun maker come out with a new SxS is that we wind up seeing the opinions of the very top of the shotgun buying public - knowledge wise.

S&W isn't really going after that part of the market they're going after the guy who's always kid of wanted a SxS but has choked at the $$$ it takes to get on board the train even at the entry level. Pushing $3K and up for an bottom feeder Spanish Boxlock is nuts...

S&W isn't going to satisfy the more finely tuned aesthetics of the dedicated SxS shooter with a $2,000 gun, and I really doubt that's what they are aiming for. They are trying to sow some more guns into a marketplace that's already saturated with O/Us and autoloaders and pumps.

They need to build a gun thaat the "average" guy trying to decide if he wants a new Browning/Beretta or that new SxS from S&W is going to have a hard time making a decision about.

It looks like they may have found that spot.

CSMC is making some pretty nice guns here in the US. They are only boxlocks and start about $14,000 http://www.connecticutshotgun.com/index/Fox/Fox4.htm
Things didn't work out too well for the Ithaca SxS guys.
Not trying to be a smarta** but this would be economic reality and not likely to change anytime soon.

M.L. -- the pre-production (not prototype) guns I shot were made in the new factory in Turkey.

If you think it is impossible to make a good gun in Turkey, then nothing will change your mind.

But . . . I know junk. And these are not junk. They actually are quite nice. I'd post photos here, if I could figure out how.

No one is shoving anything down anywhere. You certainly are free to not buy, and you are even free to call a gun junk when you haven't seen it, much less shot it. Your perogative.

I'm looking forward to seeing a Grade II in 28 gauge. If I can get one with 28 or 29-inch barrels, two triggers (though this is not a deal-breaker for me), and a weight of about 6 pounds, I'm on board.

Would I prefer a sidelock? Probably, but in a slim action like this, with a nice rounded body, it's not a big deal for me.

I'll be talking about these guns on the radio show Sunday. Should be fun to hear what others think about them. The callers will weigh in, I'm sure.

Tom, I can post the photos for you if you'd like.

Just send me them via e-mail (groznak-AT-centurytel.net - replace the "-AT-" with "@") and I'll get them posted.

Tell them not to write an essay along the barrels. The barrels should have no writing (Or at the very most just tell us what size the chambers are...)

I do not need permanent writing on my gun to forever tell me to read my owner's manual...

Geoff: Look for a couple of photos in your email.

I'll get the bulk of them posted to my web site. Also, I'll see if I can put the video I shot of them on the web site, too.

Here's links to the two pictures Tom sent:

Smith & Wesson Elite #1

Smith & Wesson Elite #2

They are too big to post as is (folks wold be scrolling to see the whole pictures), I'll re-size and post on this thread tomorrow.

Here's what I'd like to see S&W make.

Rounded action Box Lock (similar to a dickson)
Duck gun - 12ga 3" w/30-32" chrome lined barrels, correctly fitted dolls head (webley screw grip) choke tubes (w/out barrel bulge), ejectors, dbl trigers (trigger spaceing and guard large enough to use heavier gloves) Choice of wood w/pistol or POW grip, good recoil pad, 14 - 14.25" LOP, 7.5 to 8lbs that ballances at hinge pin to no more than .5" forward of it.

Upland gun - Prefer 16ga (would settle on a 12) 28-30" chrome lined barrels, choke tubes(w/out barrel bulge), ejectors, dbl
trigers, Choice of wood POW grip, good recoil pad, 14 - 14.25" LOP, 6 to 6.5lbs ballances at hinge pin to no more than .5" forward of it.

Tom, I'm always interested in new sxs. Rather than give you my opinion of what I'd like to see, which would be just another of the many personal druthers you've already read, let me suggest the following:

CZ and DeHaan, with the upscale models of their Huglu-made sxs, are already at the same price point. So you already have Turkish-made competition. How will the S&W's stack up against their Turkish competitors? Will the name of a respected American gunmaker help them make inroads in the market? Will their guns be that much better than the Huglus? Will American gun buyers care if a gun is made in a Turkish plant owned by Turks, or in one built and owned by S&W?

The other point I'd make is this: Tell S&W to make SURE that the guns are as "bug free" as possible coming out of the plant. Quality control (as reflected in some of the posts above) is a BIG issue for American buyers, because guns from Turkey haven't yet established a solid track record. Many of us remember when plenty of Spanish junk was imported, and it took the Spanish makers a very long time to get past that. Don't send out guns with 10# trigger pulls, for example! And speaking of bugs, look what's happened to the Gold Label. Even after long delays and somewhat sporadic availability, Ruger's now gone back to the drawing board on that one. And take a look at the recent review in Shooting Sportsman on the Kimber Marias. Here you have a respected American company--but much like S&W, not known for shotguns--bringing out an OU for $6K or so, and the reviewer finds that a) it's a 20ga field gun weighing nearly 7#--bad idea to start with; and b) it won't fire either his reloads or one brand of factory ammo reliably. If S&W makes mistakes like those, they might as well find a buyer for that factory in Turkey. Kimber's going to have real trouble getting over their slow start. Their first generation Valiers have already been bought up, in quantity, by the Ruffed Grouse Society, which is offering them at deep discounts off the original MSRP.

You're never going to please everyone with barrel length, 2 triggers or one, stock configuration, choke tubes or not, choice of gauges, etc. Offer as many options as practical, as long as it doesn't make the gun too much more expensive. But whatever else they do, the most important thing for S&W, as a new kid on the block in the shotgun world, is to get it RIGHT from the start!

Make it look like America's favorite farmers/backwoods loafer's gun...the Fox Sterlingworth. Just a bit better wood altho!
...and not that exhibition stuff used on the RBLs.
Too much, looks too much, on a budget grade.

Quite a bit of the essay on the barrels of imported guns is not optional, it is required by federal law. If you have a complaint with seeing who imported it, their address, what gauge it is, and where it was made, start with your elected officials.

Tom, the only thing I can add is I'm not angry. But, rather, sad. Look at what you get on the same Fox Sterlingworth versus anything that comes from, say, Turkey. The Fox is a plainly finished gun that almost any gunsmith can fix, that more than likely has been working well for generations. Larry nailed it on the reliability quotient on the new stuff, it frequently is rough, even the guns that are still made here, Gold Label, 1100 Remington, whatever. I'll PAY what it takes to have the gun trouble free to begin with. The gun market is mature, and there isn't a giant wellspring of new buyers down the road for any of these makers. Why can't they spend the time and money to get it right to begin with?
The only thing I'd suggest is that they have to offer enough custom options to allow a buyer to have a gun that will suit his use of it, be it hunting, skeet, trap, sporting clays or a little bit of everything. That complicates a lot of things right there, but, "One size fits all" is never going to work in the new double arena, and a manufacturer needs to come to grips with it, and plan a way of attacking it.
Best,
Ted

Well, if anyone wants to have direct input to Smith & Wesson, tomorrow is the day.

Paul Pluff will be the guest during the first hour of my radio show. This is a CALL-IN show, so you can call him and tell him what your concerns are and what you would like to see.

If you want to listen, you can catch the show on local stations in many markets, or live on the internet (check the list of stations which offer streaming audio on http://www.guntalk.com -- click LISTEN).

The call-in number is 1-866-825-5486 (1-TOM-TALK-GUNS). The show starts at 2:06pm Eastern time (Sundays).

I'm just an interested observer. Paul has the ability to make changes. Call him.

Larry: According to the press release S&W didn't build the factory and they don't own it. It was built 'for' them. They specifically comment about no capital investment. Their 'industry partners' must have done so... It's all a bit vague.

Looks like they want their stockholders and potential investors to think that if the project works, S&W makes big profits and if it bombs out the 'industry partners' (veteran ones, no less) get stuck holding the bag.

Subcontracting. Attempt to cash in on a respected(?) name.

The 1st picture:



With link to the bigger picture so you don't have to go find my other post:

Smith & Wesson Elite #1

Looking at this picture...I have to aggre on the barrel verbiage...They need to put it UNDER the fore-end. That looks like hell.

...and the 2nd picture:



Again, with the ling to the bigger pic:

Smith & Wesson Elite #2

My comments are ment to be constructive. Honestly. This gun is ruined by that lousy gold stamp on the barrel. Nothing sets this gun apart from the competition. It's just another "me too" offering. You boys have to offer someting different than everybody else. My Dehaan SGR 13 should be here soon. I will post my finding for the board. -IM

Tom: you've taken some (misdirected) abuse in the place of S&W but thanks for posting and giving us an opportunity to contribute.
BTW: and yes, my grandfather would have been embarassed to carry a gun with gold stamping on the brl. Please ask S&W to lose the 'Elite' label. Maybe something that at least sounds American? (and not chosen by the Marketing Dept)

I concur. What were they thinking? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but ugly is still BUTT UGLY.

At the risk of sounding insistent, imagine what Dig could do roaming the British countryside with a thousand plus quid in his pocket!!

JC(AL):-)

I'm gunna stick my skinny ole neck out and say that label is there just for doing "the circuit" and perhaps the markings on the production guns will be a bit less LOUD?!

Not much to go on, but at this point I like the way it is finished at least.

Mark

I am an importer and the law requires that the name and address of the importer be marked on the gun, if it is in fact an import. And it can't be hidden. (On a takedown, it's OK to have it under the bbls but on a bolt rifle, it cant be hidden by the stock).

But I agree, there is no need to do it in a crass manner.

The top pic shows attractive colors in the casehardening and the couple of square inches of wood shown seems to show hand checkering and fair wood quality. Wood and metal fit seems decent for the price point. The engraving shows restraint, which in my book, is for the better.

The electro-etch marking on the barrels is a blight to any gun and really tears this good looking gun down several notches. Any liability driven safety statements like Ruger has on their guns also would reduce the appeal to all of the guys I know and probably would get 100% concurrence on that with this bbs membership.

I like a well matted top rib for its functional effectiveness in reducing glare when shooting toward the sun. I couldn't make out in the pics if the rib is matted. If not, I'd sure prefer they added it if I were considering one of these guns. The 'squiqqly line' type of matting is my preference when done deep enough.

Russ,
There is nothing unusual about the content of the marking compared to ...say a Fox or Parker of vintage years. It's the way it was marked. Electro-etch in large block letters is a cheap way of complying with the law. If it was roll-marked in the manner traditionally done on other vintage guns in an appropriate size, I wouldn't object to the content shown.

Tom,
I really like the looks of that gun, based on the pictures Geoff has posted for you. The raised, flat-topped rib is especially nice. The bluing looks like a fine English rust blue, and the case colors look to be well done also. The receiver sculpting is just absolutely perfect, with the accent cuts around the fences that flow into the rib. VERY NICE! Much better than the RBL's skimpy rib.

S&W definitely needs to consider another name. Something like the "Smith & Wesson Light Field Gun" on top of the rib, with a Grade I (or II,III, etc.)marking on the flats of the receiver. Leave the barrels UNMARKED except for chamber length and gauge!

Also, as I stated previously, they definitely need to offer a semi-pistol grip option, regardless of single or double triggers. Every importer of Spanish guns has nothing but straight grips. They are everywhere. Look at the American Classics (Parker, Fox, L.C.Smith, Lefever, Win. M21) for guidance here; they all had small-circumference, semi-pistol grips as standard issue and are still very desirable in the market.

I would strongly consider fixed chokes initially in something like a light modified/modified offering. Choke tubes aren't nearly as importnat on this type of gun as many would have you believe. Take heed; the classic simplicity of fixed chokes has great appeal in this market!

This gun has great potential. The 20 gauge is a smart initial offering, with a 16 being a savvy second offering. Once more, they should forget the 26" barrel lenth and offer 28" and 30" instead. Personally, I would love a 30" 16 ga. with a semi-pistol grip and a small semi-beavertail.

I wish them huge success with this.
JR

What we have learned is that marketing departments haven't got a clue.

We might have known it would have the word 'Gold' on it someplace. Anyone else sick of this? We have the Browning Gold, the Gold Pigeon, the Gold Label, ad nauseum.. Everything is friggin' 'Gold' something... enuf already!

The barrel marking IS comical... best laugh of the day.

Wouldn't you rather have this:

WILLIAM EVANS 12-BORE SIDELOCK EJECTOR, serial no. 13959, 28in. nitro barrels, 2 1/2in. chambers, bored approx. 1/4 choke in both, treble-grip action with removable striker discs, best bold acanthus scroll engraving, retaining slight traces of original colour-hardening and finish, 14 1/4 in. stock, cast off for central vision, weight 6lb. 9oz.
Estimate £700-900


Clean the checkering and you are done!

JC(Nagging)

Or maybe this one (don't even need to clean the checkering!):

SAMUEL SMALLWOOD 12-BORE BOXLOCK EJECTOR, serial no. 3478, 29in nitro barrels inscribed "SAMUEL SMALLWOOD 9 MILK STREET SHREWSBURY", 2 1/2in chambers, bored approx true cyl and 3/4 choke, scalloped backed action profusely engraved with bold acanthus scrollwork, carved leaf fences, 14in well-figured stock, weight 6lbs 10oz, in a canvas case.
Estimate £500-700


A lot more value in these oldies than two grand (US)!

JC(AL)

Jaycee,
These beautiful old English guns are terrific to look at, but always have qualifiers attached to them. First, they are all 12 ga. at these prices. For a guy wanting a small, trim 20 ga. it's a non-starter. Second, they never have the right drop or length of pull, and it is sometimes near impossible to get them where you want them. Third, when you start looking at them really close, you find little problems that are a continuing source of aggravation.

The biggest problem, however, is that they are simply 12 ga. guns. Are those auction estimate prices? If so, they seldom hold to that. I love that Samuel Smallwood gun, though. Where is it?
JR

No doubt. My next gun will probably be a superposed pigeon grade. About 3000.00 I figure.Much better money spent. -IM

JR, Holt's.

Lot 1723

JC(AL)

Good catch on the "central vision" stock, Geoff. That's the fly in the ointment with the Evans, even if one doesn't mind putting up with the foibles of a British game gun. (I don't, and I own a pair of Brit 12's with 28" barrels that are in the same weight class as an RBL 20. Why look for a smaller gauge if not for weight reduction?)

John, "never" is too definite a word to use in the case of off the rack guns, of any kind, not fitting. I'm pretty average when it comes to dimensions, and my Brit pair fit me as well, without modification, as about anything I've ever owned. For most modern shooters, a classic Brit double is much more likely to fit, or come close, than a classic American double--unless the American double is a pretty late one. Usually, American doubles came with a lot more drop than Brit doubles. And European walnut tends to be easier to bend, if that's necessary, than American walnut. But when you're shopping used, you certainly need to factor in what you need to do to the gun (stock modifications, any necessary repairs, opening chokes, etc) and add that to the price. The only modification mine required was "choke surgery"--and that on only one barrel out of 4. There have been a few repairs, fairly minor, but that's typical of vintage used guns. I always advise people shopping for doublegun bargains to look newer used, like post-WWII. Something like an SKB or Miroku Daly, Beretta, Bernardelli, Sauer, etc. Fewer miles on the odometer, modern proofs and chamber lengths, often significant savings off what a similar gun would cost new today. Try to find something the quality of an Ithaca SKB 100 for the $7-900 or so you're likely to pay, price depending on gauge and condition. Or the Beretta GR-2 I just bought, for about the same money.

Never is probably a poor choice of words perhaps, but in the connotation I intended, it aptly characterizes what happens when you find a bargain. As Rosanna Rosannadanna said, "it's always something"...
JR

Fools are we. You know, I used to subscribe to Petersen's Hunting until I found out it was just one big infomercial from cover to cover. All of the hunting stories were the same; Gunwriter gets "invited" to go on a $4000.00 Western big game hunt with the P/R man of Winchester, Browning,Remington, etc.. The P/R man "just" happens to have four copies of the firms new .300 Gigamag. Just in case some one wants to try them. They all kill their animals, thank, in no small part to the gigamag. You thought you were reading a hunting article, but it ends up as just a sales pitch. The End. Now I like you Tom, please don't misunderstand, but it seems fishy that you sign up with your real name instead of some stupid psuedo-name, like Improved Modified, Sage Grouse, etc. Then happen to talk about some new S&W shotgun, (Oh by the way the S&W guy will be on my show tomorrow to answer any questions you might have.) Please no sales pitches here. Answer some guys question on an Ithica Flues, or better yet, add another thread to, Alkanet root-reddish stock tint. -Best regards and shoot straight. -IM

Why doesn't the barrel marking read "Turkey" instead of "Springfield, MA"?

I'm so sick of seeing American names on foreign products.

IM,
If I was in TomGresham's shoes (assuming he's being compensated for) helping S&W hump the new gun - This forum is a very good place to get a sanity check from the hardcore doublegun crowd. We have collectors, tinkers, shooters, the advanced and the newbies all in one spot for a quick marketing query. Marketing not sales...G Rosnak hit it on the head; that folks who's next gun is going to be a 40 year old Belgian made graded Super aren't going to be buyers of the Made in Huglu S&W.

Now if S&W built the new plant stateside - I bet he could sell 25 or 50 guns right here in a matter of weeks. I have an RBL on order pretty much because I wanted CSMC to be successful at building an affordable gun, and if S&W was building domestically I'd probabably get one for the same reason.

TomGresham,
I do want to see your name in the contributors list for doublegunshop.com - kick a 20 to Dave via paypal.

It would take minutes.

Yeti:

I most definitely am NOT being compensated by S&W to consult on this gun. I just am a gun junkie. Because I write about guns, have a radio show about guns, and host TV shows about guns, I sometimes get to see this stuff early, and I get to tell 'em what I think. Of course, they are free to ignore me, and most companies do. <grin>

Paypal? You gotta be kidding. Paypal has a decidedly anti-gun stance. I'd be happy to mail a check, though.

I just put more photos of the S&W shotguns (and some handguns) on http://www.guntalk.com.

Geoff,
You are badly mistaken, and the people who imported the Siace you own broke Federal law, plain and simple. #479.102 of the National Firearms Act, Title 27, CFR chapter II is very clear on this. The model, caliber or gauge, importer, manufacturer, importers address, and, in the case of imported firearms, where the firearm was made, have to be engraved, cast, or stamped at least .003 of depth and in letters no less than 1/16 of size. It has to be placed conspicuously, and be on the frame, barrel or receiver.

I've imported guns for years, and if I could have left it off, I would have, plain and simple. Why anyone would think manufacturers would spend money to put the information there unless it was required under penalty of law is beyond me.
Best,
Ted

It doesn't have be running right along the barrel does it? Cant it be under on the barrel flat or something where you don't see it whilst shooting?

(Also, I know that we have discussed this before, but if an individual imports a gun then they do not have to put all of those markings on it, that is one reason to bring a gun in yourself rather than going through an importer.)



Obviously some manufacturers spend money on wording that is not required by law. The 28ga 870 that I have sitting right here reads
on one side of the barrel. I am pretty sure that the law does not require that on the barrel since my Gold Label did not have all of that...

If the street price is under $2K I think they will sell a few. Looks a bit like the Dakota Superlight

I love round bodied boxlocks

They could engrave or roll stamp the wording the blue the barrels rathr than highlighting them, in ugly font to boot.

Thanks, Geoff. I'm merely a conduit through which information flows.

<grin>

Opinions are . . . well, you know. And these are just my opinions based on a first look and an hour at the range.

beautiful scalloped frame. But, the gold lettering has to go! -IM

And if it is offered in 28ga on a 28ga frame...

By the way that factory looks cool, but I wonder if so little of the work is done by hand (with those fancy machines) couldn't they have been built in America almost as cheaply?

Erik, good point!! BTW, where is it that the RBL is made?

JC(AL)

I agree with Geoff about the trigger profile being ugly. Get rid of all that belly! The gun definitely needs to have a double trigger option.

The receiver is just beautiful, with the scalloped rear and sculpting of the fences, tasteful, restrained engraving. Nice trigger guard, too. The splinter forend looks to be a fairly full one also, which might not be too bad until a semi-bt is available.

This gun has great potential at the prices being mentioned. They have gotten most of the eye appeal correct. The dynamics and reliable function will decide its success.
JR

Building it in America would have meant that the execs would have ahd to (gasp) make less profit. This in turn would mean they would deliver less (gasp) shareholder value. Which would mean all those involved people who actually know nothing about guns would have to order a (gasp) 88 foot yacht instead of the 96 foot yacht. The horror.

Does anyone recall when the president of a company drove a nicer car and lived in a nicer house - but he still only owned one car and one house, and the house was located in the same town as the factory?