doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com 1885's Winchester vs. Browning

OK...let's suppose I decided to spend some money - are the modern made Ballards (Cody) any better or worse?

The Ballard Arms Company is now in Michigan. Their Winchester reproduction is a true copy of the original flat spring acton. The parts will interchange, and in fact are used in a lot of restorations.

Glenn

My mistake, I knew they were in MI but for some reason reverted.

So...are they good quality? Are they worth 3X more money than a Winchester?

In my opinion, if you're planning on spending what a new Ballard Hi Wall goes for, why not get an old original Hi Wall instead? The original will increase in value faster, and still do what you want to do in the between time.-Vall

For me, the original Winchester re-design of JB's single shot is still the best of the many "1885s". Several reasons, but mainly the speed of loading the second shot. I don't like the later coil-spring version as well as the original because the hammer doesn't stay at full cock on reloading, which requires a separate motion that I find awkward--single shot rifles are slow enough without this kind of "safety" feature. I also don't like the "crunchy" feel of the coil spring compressing. (I have one coil spring Hi-wall, but for hunting use removed the "fly" that drops the hammer to half-cock. Still has the "crunch"). I do understand the coil-spring version was easier/cheaper to manufacture, just as the flat-spring Winchester was easier/cheaper to manufacture than the Browning Bros. hand-made rifles.

Original Hi-walls are now VERY expensive if they are in any kind of shape at all. For a "using gun", I'd pay the money for a Ballard Hi-wall or a C. Sharps Hi-wall in .30-40 (Assuming, that is, that I had the money, which I don't). My original Winchester 1885s were purchased when nobody cared about them except a few wierd collectors and they were really cheap (1950s and 1960s), or I put them together from wrecks and spare parts after the decent ones became collectors items (1970s and 1980s). I found my best one one in a collapsed line shack on BLM land in Nevada (1955--the price, as they say, was right....). Now even "brown dogs" and "parts guns" are at collector prices.

The Miroku-manufactured single shots that began this thread are nice enough rifles if you can get one without bowling ball stock finish, and in a caliber that fits your use. Winchesters they ain't, nor are they really Brownings, any more than a tarted-up Stevens is a Fox or a plain-Jane Ithaca a Lefever. The Uberti "1885" is also a nice rifle and well-finished, but not a Winchester either (take a look under the forearm at what that "flat spring" actually DOES...wierd). These modern versions were all designed to be manufactured to a price point with modern machinery. They were NOT designed to be repaired by a hunter out in the baldies or a rancher with a few tools and maybe a spare parts kit. As a certified old fart, I hate that--just as I hate not being able to repair my car without a computer to diagnose what's wrong. Progress? Maybe.

All that said, if I didn't have a few real Winchester made-in-New Haven 1885s, I'd buy one of these foriegn "relatives" and shoot the hell out of it. Whatever their cosmetic, functional, or economic flaws, they have a lot of the feel and function of JB's first genius design in them.

Has anyone seen the "Winchester" (really Miroku) "Limited Edition 1885 Trapper" in .45-70? What did YOU think? (Do you suppose there was a reason Winchester never made any like it?).

I agree with what Mike says for the most part. But I do believe one of the main reasons Winchester went to a coil main spring in the original 1885 was to allow the takedown feature which was an option with most of the firms other rifles.

As for the new Brownings and Win, I did a drawing for a custom M-78 years ago but fortunately the client went broke before I could get started. At one point I tried to talk myself into a new "low wall" but couldn't even begin to warm up to them. Also, as I mentioned before, disassemble at your own peril!

I do have a very dear fondness for original actions and custom rifles, this one has a tiny gold SDH on the barrel. And tht crescent buttplate is plunged firmly in Angus crap on a gopher foray with the owner.

SDH, thanks for reminding me of the reason for the coil spring development. I assume by that time the main market for the 1885 was target shooters and target/varmint/small game shooters who wanted to be able to take their rifles to the range or pasture on public transportation without getting tut-tutted at by the other riders. And the half-cock/fly safety arrangement was for the target shooters as well (a concession to "shooting in a crowd"). Not so many 1885s being bought for big game hunting by then, so less need for reloading speed?

I can't remember seeing any original Winchester two-barrel sets, although I saw a beauty made by Ballard Rifle Co. in .30-40 and .405 Win., and another one made by a 'smith in .22 LR and .32-40 with two fitted blocks (a Scheutzen rifle).

Maybe I can put a deposit for one in .25-35 and .356 Win. with Ballard and pay for it with my taxpayer dividend from "The Bailout" when they finish it for me? ( You can call me an old fart but not a NEGATIVE old fart!).

Hi J. D. Steele,
After reading your response about the Uberti I just had to take it apart, had no problems at all. I was surprised that it was a coil spring action. Because of what you said about the firing pin I checked it, was real easy to take out of the block, took out the two screws holding the recoil plate in the block and out comes the firing pin, it looked ok, did not seem to be to long, was well rounded and the few times I shot it had no problems. I am a bit confused because of you saying that it is a bit more complicated than the originals, I don't have an original to compare it to but did not have any problems taking it apart and putting it back together. Thanks again for responding to my question.
S-T

Hi Mike Armstrong,
My speed shooting days are long over so don't have to worry about a fast second shot. All I do now a days is walk from the car to the firing line, and that's not far.
Because of your comment about the "flat spring" I checked what it actually does and found that what it does is hold tension on the lever. Being new to High Walls I may be missing something but what is so "weird" about it holding tension on the lever, seems that it does a very good job of what it's supposed to do.
What do you guys think about the "old" 1885 steel vs. the "new" steel of today.
S-T

S-T, my comment about the firing pin was based upon the old original Uberti design which has recently been updated into a safety-type Mann-Neidner style. This update removed my main concern with the action, that is, a too-complicated firing pin assembly with no added safety features in return for the added complications. The newly-updated design is fine IMO.

The presence of two springs is redundant since the original design used only the leaf spring to accomplish both lever and hammer tensions. A properly-timed coil spring action doesn't need the separate lever spring since the hammer will keep tension on the lever via the link anyway. I emphasize the term 'properly-timed' here; most walls are not timed well at all IMO, the lever goes too far over-center and drops the block to an inordinate degree before finally seating in the trigger plate. All of that unnecessary lost motion contributes to a low firing pin strike, broken firing pin noses and more headspace than necessary. I wrote a couple of articles in the ASSRA Journal about this problem and one solution for it, around 4-5 years ago. Frank de Haas detailed several aspects of the problem and the solution in his seminal work Single Shot Rifles and Actions, a very handy book every single shot enthusiast should own.

My own opinion (worth every penny you're paying for it, BG) about the original wall steel can be inferred from my latest project, a 300 WSM bull barrel on my high wall test mule action. Strictly an experiment to utilize a superb Douglas 30-cal bull barrel and to create a poor man's rimmed wildcat for single shot rifles by forming 348 WCF brass to use in the 300 WSM chamber, with rim cut performed on the lathe while chambering. Weighs 17 lbs and might need wheels! My friend Marvin the Aerial Applicator has an 800-yd rifle range on his duster strip up in The Delta and occasionally invites us up for a shooting session on paper and local tick birds (cattle egrets) plaguing the catfish farmers. Many of the catfish ponds are laid out in 40s (40 acres, 440 yds X 440 yds) or 80s (80 acres, 440 yds X 880 yds) and can provide good long-range sport for the right combination. He shoots a Ruger No 1 bull barrel in 300 Improved Mag (built especially for the Hickory Egg Shoot) and I hope to blow his doors off!
Regards, Joe