doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Smith & Wesson Double Guns

Tom, I can post the photos for you if you'd like.

Just send me them via e-mail (groznak-AT-centurytel.net - replace the "-AT-" with "@") and I'll get them posted.

Tell them not to write an essay along the barrels. The barrels should have no writing (Or at the very most just tell us what size the chambers are...)

I do not need permanent writing on my gun to forever tell me to read my owner's manual...

Geoff: Look for a couple of photos in your email.

I'll get the bulk of them posted to my web site. Also, I'll see if I can put the video I shot of them on the web site, too.

Here's links to the two pictures Tom sent:

Smith & Wesson Elite #1

Smith & Wesson Elite #2

They are too big to post as is (folks wold be scrolling to see the whole pictures), I'll re-size and post on this thread tomorrow.

Here's what I'd like to see S&W make.

Rounded action Box Lock (similar to a dickson)
Duck gun - 12ga 3" w/30-32" chrome lined barrels, correctly fitted dolls head (webley screw grip) choke tubes (w/out barrel bulge), ejectors, dbl trigers (trigger spaceing and guard large enough to use heavier gloves) Choice of wood w/pistol or POW grip, good recoil pad, 14 - 14.25" LOP, 7.5 to 8lbs that ballances at hinge pin to no more than .5" forward of it.

Upland gun - Prefer 16ga (would settle on a 12) 28-30" chrome lined barrels, choke tubes(w/out barrel bulge), ejectors, dbl
trigers, Choice of wood POW grip, good recoil pad, 14 - 14.25" LOP, 6 to 6.5lbs ballances at hinge pin to no more than .5" forward of it.

Tom, I'm always interested in new sxs. Rather than give you my opinion of what I'd like to see, which would be just another of the many personal druthers you've already read, let me suggest the following:

CZ and DeHaan, with the upscale models of their Huglu-made sxs, are already at the same price point. So you already have Turkish-made competition. How will the S&W's stack up against their Turkish competitors? Will the name of a respected American gunmaker help them make inroads in the market? Will their guns be that much better than the Huglus? Will American gun buyers care if a gun is made in a Turkish plant owned by Turks, or in one built and owned by S&W?

The other point I'd make is this: Tell S&W to make SURE that the guns are as "bug free" as possible coming out of the plant. Quality control (as reflected in some of the posts above) is a BIG issue for American buyers, because guns from Turkey haven't yet established a solid track record. Many of us remember when plenty of Spanish junk was imported, and it took the Spanish makers a very long time to get past that. Don't send out guns with 10# trigger pulls, for example! And speaking of bugs, look what's happened to the Gold Label. Even after long delays and somewhat sporadic availability, Ruger's now gone back to the drawing board on that one. And take a look at the recent review in Shooting Sportsman on the Kimber Marias. Here you have a respected American company--but much like S&W, not known for shotguns--bringing out an OU for $6K or so, and the reviewer finds that a) it's a 20ga field gun weighing nearly 7#--bad idea to start with; and b) it won't fire either his reloads or one brand of factory ammo reliably. If S&W makes mistakes like those, they might as well find a buyer for that factory in Turkey. Kimber's going to have real trouble getting over their slow start. Their first generation Valiers have already been bought up, in quantity, by the Ruffed Grouse Society, which is offering them at deep discounts off the original MSRP.

You're never going to please everyone with barrel length, 2 triggers or one, stock configuration, choke tubes or not, choice of gauges, etc. Offer as many options as practical, as long as it doesn't make the gun too much more expensive. But whatever else they do, the most important thing for S&W, as a new kid on the block in the shotgun world, is to get it RIGHT from the start!

Make it look like America's favorite farmers/backwoods loafer's gun...the Fox Sterlingworth. Just a bit better wood altho!
...and not that exhibition stuff used on the RBLs.
Too much, looks too much, on a budget grade.

Quite a bit of the essay on the barrels of imported guns is not optional, it is required by federal law. If you have a complaint with seeing who imported it, their address, what gauge it is, and where it was made, start with your elected officials.

Tom, the only thing I can add is I'm not angry. But, rather, sad. Look at what you get on the same Fox Sterlingworth versus anything that comes from, say, Turkey. The Fox is a plainly finished gun that almost any gunsmith can fix, that more than likely has been working well for generations. Larry nailed it on the reliability quotient on the new stuff, it frequently is rough, even the guns that are still made here, Gold Label, 1100 Remington, whatever. I'll PAY what it takes to have the gun trouble free to begin with. The gun market is mature, and there isn't a giant wellspring of new buyers down the road for any of these makers. Why can't they spend the time and money to get it right to begin with?
The only thing I'd suggest is that they have to offer enough custom options to allow a buyer to have a gun that will suit his use of it, be it hunting, skeet, trap, sporting clays or a little bit of everything. That complicates a lot of things right there, but, "One size fits all" is never going to work in the new double arena, and a manufacturer needs to come to grips with it, and plan a way of attacking it.
Best,
Ted

Well, if anyone wants to have direct input to Smith & Wesson, tomorrow is the day.

Paul Pluff will be the guest during the first hour of my radio show. This is a CALL-IN show, so you can call him and tell him what your concerns are and what you would like to see.

If you want to listen, you can catch the show on local stations in many markets, or live on the internet (check the list of stations which offer streaming audio on http://www.guntalk.com -- click LISTEN).

The call-in number is 1-866-825-5486 (1-TOM-TALK-GUNS). The show starts at 2:06pm Eastern time (Sundays).

I'm just an interested observer. Paul has the ability to make changes. Call him.

Larry: According to the press release S&W didn't build the factory and they don't own it. It was built 'for' them. They specifically comment about no capital investment. Their 'industry partners' must have done so... It's all a bit vague.

Looks like they want their stockholders and potential investors to think that if the project works, S&W makes big profits and if it bombs out the 'industry partners' (veteran ones, no less) get stuck holding the bag.

Subcontracting. Attempt to cash in on a respected(?) name.