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#118652 10/26/08 11:20 AM
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got a question for you all that maybe you could help me with .
i received on my front pourch a box of parts from an old muzzleloading SXS some months back . dont know who left them . i just came home and there they were .

Now it was missing the stock but all else was there .
The barrels are stamped W&C.S.
I assume this is Webly & charles Scott . The barrels are in very good shape and of London twist with gold bands inlayed around the breech plugs and center rib .
The standing breech is engraved nicely as is the locks ,
The trigger guard and but plate however have a little engraving left but the are badly corroded .
Now here is what throwing me . The locks , which are back action locks are engraved with the name Westley with a very nicely done pheasant , set and sailing on one side and rising on the other .
Now I know this could be just the name of the owner But what im wondering is , did W&C.S possibly make barrels that were purchased by Westley Richards ?
There are no serial numbers on the parts so im thinking that the numbers may have been on the stock .
Recently I have been ask to re furbish these parts and restock the gun . Easily doable .
I would like to however be able to nail down some of the information
Could anyone provide some possible areas of research
Im sure this is a mid to late 19 century original but im at a loss for examples or where to look for examples , or for that mater even if im on the right track .

Your opinions would be greatly appreciated

Last edited by captchee; 10/26/08 11:37 AM.
captchee #118654 10/26/08 11:36 AM
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OHHH sorry , its a 12 gage

captchee #118657 10/26/08 11:53 AM
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Captchee I once owned a Westley Richards 16ga muzzleloader converted to centerfire. The damascus barrels were made by Needham. Your muzzleloader most likely has had new barrels made or the parts are a conglomeration. You will most likely never know.

Mike Harrell #118661 10/26/08 12:21 PM
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well im prepared for the never know part . That all to common
The barrels most certainly could have been someone’s replacement
Or as I alluded to before this could be a complete piece and the names on the locks are just the owners last name not referring to Westley Richards at all

Would you know of any location where or that might have photos of original webley and scott back action muzzleloading SXS ? What im looking for is stock configurations .
did they have a pistol typr grip or none at all as earlier SXS ?

Im sure it would have been along the lines of the older Greeners but I would like to get a better idea then just my I think , if you know what I mean

And thank you very much for your reply

Last edited by captchee; 10/26/08 12:23 PM.
captchee #118663 10/26/08 12:49 PM
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I've never seen anyone's name engraved on the locks but the maker's. I've also learned to never say never. I'm not into muzzleloaders so I can't help. Sorry.

Mike Harrell #118681 10/26/08 04:20 PM
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W & C Scott stands for William and his brother Charles. Webley merged with W & C Scott in 1879.


> Jim Legg <

Jim Legg #118690 10/26/08 05:30 PM
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I had correspondence with MR Crawford of W&C Scott back in the early '80s concerning a Pinfire of their make. This is likewise a 12ga & has no serial number. This is a bar action, bar in wood gun & has a straight grip stock. Mr Crawford confirmed it was an "A" quality gun, built under Samuel Matthew's patent #2441 of 1863 & likely built between then & 1865. He further added it was the only Scott gun he had encountered built under the Matthews patent & also the only "Breech Loading" Scott he was aware of without a SN. While he did not directly say it, this left the impression with me it might not be unusual to find a Muzzle Loading Scott without a SN.
This gun has W&C Scott & Son on each lock plate as well as W&C Scott & Son 7 Dorsett Place Pall Mall East London for Benj. D. Kennedy Louisville KY on the top rib.
I might add though, I do not believe it unusual to find the "Gunmakers" name on the outside of a lockplate & a "Lockmakers" name inscribed on the inside. There was however no other name inscribed inside these locks that I recall.
The forend is incidently attached by a key similar to a ML key.


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2-piper #118722 10/26/08 10:08 PM
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thanks for the replies .
william , yes i recall that thank you

again the barrels are marked W&C.S
the center rib says London twist .
the locks say Westley but have no markings on the inside .

thanks for the lead on the strait stock

i have seen American muzzleloading locks with the owners name engraved , not the makers
So I cant help but wonder if this isn’t the case here . OR as said before this could be parts from two pieces . If so then the barrels would be the Mitch match I would think

Last edited by captchee; 10/26/08 10:09 PM.
captchee #118728 10/26/08 11:47 PM
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I think Jim has the date transposed. It was 1897 that the firms merged.

In England, whether ordering a gun or buying it off-the-shelf, the customer usually had his own ideas about what he wanted but, in the main, he was advised by his gunmaker. Although the retailer or "gunmaker" would advise the customer, his advice would depend on what he could produce himself or, more likely, by what was available at the time from the actual manufacturer of the parts or the complete gun.

Manufacturers often supplied retailers with complete guns which bore the manufacturer's name and serial number on the barrels and action, but a "trade" manufacturer would usually put the retailer's name and serial number on the barrels and the action. The trade manufacturer's initials or trade mark might be put somewhere inside the action, under the barrels or on the fore-end.

Ultimately the customer, if they insisted could have any type of stock they desired.

With American muzzleloaders. If the gun was assembled from parts, then the lock maker's name is usually on the lock. Else if the gun is done entirely in house then the maker's name appears.

In this case Joseph Golcher of England never made any guns, but was a lock maker. His locks appear on many American muzzle loaders. People confuse him for his brother James who came to Philadelphia and also produced locks in his career. They incorrectly insist that "Josh" was an American gun maker.




To add to the confusion. It is not uncommon to see a flintlock that has been converted to percussion. This could have been done by the original maker or a 3rd party. Early 19th gunsmiths often advertised "white smithing". It was their way of saying they had the locks to do the conversions.

Pete

Jim Legg #118764 10/27/08 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jim Legg
W & C Scott stands for William and his brother Charles. Webley merged with W & C Scott in 1879.


Pete is correct. I read it right out of the book and typed it wrong. It was 1897.
Thank you.


> Jim Legg <

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