doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT: Gun writing gone bad?

Larry,
Oscar related to me that he had indeed used Magnaflux (magnetic particle inspection) to look at flaws in damascus barrels. He noted that the damascus pattern was a low intensity background indication and that the flaw(s) were redily visible.

Jim,
I think we are in agreement. ...Except on the point about the safety of damascus. I don't find any additional confort in a 100 yr old fluid steel barrel than a damascus barreled gun of reputable maker...respecting the pressures they were both designed for, of course. 100 yr old guns is 100 yr old guns. Be cautious and judicious.

Miller,
Please, tell us more about your concern of "seams" in fluid steel barrels. Is this primarily a concern of yours about vintage or modern barrels?

I know of only one Damascus barrel which failed due to other than an obstruction. This was a 28 Ga at the Vintagers which had been honed down to 9 thousandths at the failure point. Naturally, it would not have passed proof house tests. As for old fluid steel vs old Damascus barrels, they were proofed to the same amounts and neither should be fed numerous modern loads. irmpowder.com has many very light loads listed to consider. There is a 24 gram load at 100+ fps that delivers 3200 psi. There is also a 1 oz 1100+ fps load at 4200 psi. These are much lower than old Damascus loads. The Damascus loads I have seen listed ranged from 6500-8500 psi. There are some testing differences and pressure measuring point differences. Luckily there are many who would buy those dangerous old Damascus barreled guns any of you might offer for sale. Just for wall hangers, you know.

I was at Keith Kercher's one time when a fellow brought in an LC Smith for rebluing. The fellow raved on the gun about how many ducks and geese he and his grandfather had shot with the old gun with magnum loads. Keith asked him if he wanted it blued or browned since it was Damascus. The guy turned green and traded it to Keith for a real steel gun.

Chuck;
First off I think you misread my post if you concluded I was overly concerned about "Seams". That they occured is well documented. This was in fact what Whitworth was trying to avoid with his "Fluid Compressed Steel". I know you have a metal working background. I have no idea how long you actually spent "Cutting Iron", but if very long you no doubt cut into a flaw in a modern piece of steel. Various testing of mat'l has eliminated a lot of problems, but even so they are not absolute guarantees against all problems. I was though, primarily speaking of steel bbls built during the same to slightly later era than an average damascus bbl. During this era a steel ingot was drawn/rolled out into a long bar, from which bbls were drilled/turned to form them. A small bubble formed in the ingot on cooling would be elongated into what was referred to as a seam. "Most" showed up in work, but occasionally one could fall totally inside the wall of a bbl & go un-detected. My main point though was simply "We Have no Guarantee" regardles of what we shoot, new, old, steel, damascus or whatever. One could just simply stay in bed, but then the ceiling might fall. All guns require careful consideration for their safe use & the older they are the more consideration becomes necessary, but Blanket statements such as made by a few here are generally quite worthless. Fortunately flaws are seldom encountered in either steel or damascus bbls & either should be capable of being enjoyed with proper loading & care.

The technology to produce Damascus barrels developed for several reasons.

Originally barrels were being produced by wrapping metal around a mandrel and welding it longitudinally. These barrels were prone to burst along the weld inflicting great harm to the shooter. Damascus was seen as a safer method of construction. When damascus bursts, it is always in specific location. The very construction of the tube prevents a longitudinal burst.

As time and technology progressed, it became possible to economically produce round stock and bore it out to produce shotgun tubes. This lead to the demise of damascus.

In 1903, Liege produced 39,000 sets of sxs barrels. In 1906, they produced 159,000 sets. This huge increase in business lead some to start cutting corners and producing inferior barrels. One of the problems was that some makers stopped boring out the chemise. Fired splinters of metal would spew from the gun. This also set the stage for barrel obstructions. The better makers in Belgium were aware of this and spoke out against these shoddy practices.
http://damascus-barrels.com/files/Damascus-Barrels_dot_com_E_Heuse_Lemoine.pdf

I believe that many of the "problem" guns have since found their way to the scrap heap.

Pete

Chuck:
Over the years I've seen some really nasty damascus failures and here in lies the rub. Damascus barrels,at least the ones I've seen, tend to blow out right around where your off hand is located on the forarm. This,to me is just abount as dangerous a castrophic failure one can have with a shotgun. The only blown damascus barrel shotgun I ever personally owned(a Colt 1883 Hammerless) purchased at a garage salefor $20 failed at this point.
According to the owner who was only slightly injured, It was a first shot of the day with a low base load. It blew a strip 2" to 3" and perhas a 1/4" wide long right out of the side of the left barrel and he insisted there couldn't possibly have been an obstruction in the barrel. I had bought the gun with the intention of getting it sleeved but it didn't really fit me that well. I sold the gun to someone for parts years ago but I wish I would have taken some pictures. I have examined several other damascus failures over the years,some high end guns and some clunkers, but only with a cursory interest.
Moving over to fluid steel examples I personally have never handled a double with a burst barrel as described above. I have seen bulged barrels,dimpled barrels and split at the muzzle barrels due to an obstruction of snow or mud. I have yet to see a burst barrel though. This is also true of pumps and autos,bulges,splits at the muzzle but no bursts.
Again; If you or anyone else wants to shoot damascus barrel shotguns it's a free Country,or at least it's free till November,so have at it. But I for one remain unconvinced there are no real risks here. I've never read Sherman Bells articles but would certainly like to review his testing methodology and particularly the size of the samples he used.
Jim

Jim, Mr. Bell did not conduct his testing in a highly scientific double blind method or anything else like that. Nor did he use a particulary high amount of guns in his sample group. And in one test, if my memory serves me correct he was shooting one gun with increasing loads until the barrels would blow up, and here an obstruction was needed to help finish the job. But all he did is show that damascus steel is a heck of a lot stronger than most people used to give it credit for.

Tim

Blown fluid steel shotgun barrels.



Pete

Tim:
I spent about 5 years working in the research department dealing with statistical analysis. This is one of the reasons I raised this point as I suspected that a non-scientific study was conducted. Without a statistically valid sample size and a rigorious testing methodology nothing can be generalized of the population.
All that really can be said is with a small amount of two different types of barrels no difference was found in the relative strenghts of the materials used. This to me is potentially a very dangerous assumption. I think many of you have minimized potential problems by using low pressure loads and not shooting a gun whose barrels are obviously damaged but you can't eliminate the risk.
Jim

Those are from the Ithaca tests, is that correct? And if so, wouldn't Sweet Lou have an interest to see to it that those barrels DID blow up? He could sure sell a whole lot more new guns and/or re-barrel ones that folks wouldn't buy new. If they didn't blow up, where was his sales pitch???

Tim