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Joined: Sep 2003
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This past weekend I was visiting the Tulsa OK Gun Show and purchased a doublegun set of SXS rifle barrels. I have collected double rifles for several years now and this set of SXS barrels is not known to me. The top rib has no Makers marks. Both barrel flats have the typical 1800s British Proof Marks. However, the flat on the forward barrel lump is stamped within a circle "USA" over "Nov 1 1876" over "Patent". It is posible that the date is 1870. The last digit is not clear, and I need to get smoke pulls of all of the marks. Measuring very roughly with a mechanical caliper the bore is about 380-410" and the chamber is about 490-510'. Sorry but I do not have access to any accurate tools tonight. I will get better measurements tommorrow. I will also get a description of the style of the rifling and the twist rate. Aside from the typical British Proof Marks the right barrel flat is stamped with Load specs. The left barrel flat is stamped with what appears to be the words Premeir Gun. I collect mostly British Doubles and have no American Doubles. So I am not very familiar with American Doubles. However, a fellow at the gun show (that has gunsmithed for over 40 years) examined them. He was quite sure that these barrels appeared to be made for a Lefever Double. If any of you are real familiar with the Lefever Doubles I can email photos. Let me know what areas of the barrel set that you would like to see in the photos. Thank you and I look forward to your reply. Best Regards, R Wesley.

Last edited by gaugedrifles; 11/12/08 09:49 PM.
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What, exactly, are the marks on the flats, including the load specs?


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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Sounds like Lefever...lets see pics?

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Are these Lefever rifle barrels? When I purchased these last weekend I was told by the seller that these old barrels were stored in a wet basement for many years. The outside showed long-term oxidation with some pitting, so they will now require restoration. Fortunately, the bores must have been heavily oiled because they cleaned out very nicely. The barrel set has now been stripped for refinishing and was “smoked” for providing smoke pulls. So the black marks and most of the roughness, seen in these links to the 3 photos, is smoke residue. The top barrel rib has no Makers marks. The flat on the forward barrel lump is stamped with a circle containing the following text "USA" over "Nov 1 1870" over "Patent". Measuring very roughly with a mechanical caliper the rifled bore is about .400-.410 inch and the chamber is about .500-.510 inch. The right barrel flat is stamped with the following: “Charge 4 Drm 1 ¼ Shot” and with the following 4 London Proof Marks reading downward from the top: Crown over CP; sideways “W” or sideways “17” (this stamped mark is very unclear on both flats); Crown over V; Lion over winged g. The left barrel flat is stamped with the following: “Premier Gun”, together with the same British Proof Marks that are stamped on the right flat. The 4 digit serial number “5 7 6 4” is stamped on the bottom of both barrels, just forward of the barrel flats. It is my understanding that Lefever did make some Double Rifles in the late 1800s. Are there any serial number records of Lefever guns made during the late 1800s? Thank you and I look forward to your reply. The following link will take you to the 3 photos. Best Regards, R Wesley.


Last edited by Dave Weber; 11/12/08 10:33 PM.
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Picture for above:



When using photo-bucket you need to specify the exact image file. Not the page with the picture on it. Opposite mouse click on pix then look at properties and copy image location. Paste in to BBS when using add image to post.

You were real close...!

Last edited by Dave Weber; 11/12/08 10:38 PM.

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First, let's deal with the proof marks.

Quote:
Crown over CP


No, it's a crown over "GP" interlaced in a cypher. This is London's definitive proof mark.

Quote:
Crown over V


London's view mark.

Quote:
Lion over winged g


It isn't a winged G. It's lion rampant over the letters "GP" interlaced in a cypher. This is London's provisional proof mark, used to denote test of a barrel before the barrels are made up, and before final, definitive proof.

Quote:
sideways “W” or sideways “17”


This is not a British proof mark. I don't know what it is.

The charge engraved on the flats was put there by the maker, not the proof house. British proof marks are stamped, not engraved, and were, and are, highly standardized.

Missing is the mark that indicates bore size, which would have been a "10" or "12" (4 drams and 1 1/4 oz shot). This mark may have been forward of the flats on the round, which may be why it's missing.

From the charge engraved on the flats and the proof marks, these were, originally, British shotgun barrels - a 10 or heavy 12 gauge. Since they are now rifled and are now of much small bore diameter - I assume they're now rifled since you're calling them rifle barrels - they have since been sleeved or lined. The seams between the original barrels and the sleeve inserts are clearly visible on the face of the barrels in the third photo. These are not original double rifle barrels, nor have they been reproved since conversion. Slug the bores and make a cerrosafe chamber cast to determine current caliber.






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gaugedrifles:

Also note the significant "step" in the profile of the barrels just in front of the chambers. This would indicate that these were sleeved rather than lined, as the barrels in front of the chambers are no longer their original diameter. This "step" is about where the other seam would be if the conversion was done via sleeving rather than lining.

Hmm. The link to the photos has now disappeared and the second and third photos are no longer available.


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Thank you Dave for posting the photo of the proof marks. I will try to post the other 2 pics.
Thank you 400NE for your feedback. I have sent a photo of the Proof Marks to the London Proof House for their help in determining what the unknown or possibly un-identifiable mark may be.

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Here you go.






They're looking a bit tired, but meaty enough for a good strike/polish/refinish once you find a gun on which you'd want to fit them -- given they're something you'd want to run after it all...

The long-length of the old barrels up the undersides of the 'new' barrels looks to be a way the guy who'd done this could run his original forend wood.
Also it extends the area of the solder joint -- I wonder what they used to join these.


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Tinker:

There they are! Thanks.

These same photos were much smaller in the link, and I didn't notice what you referred to here:

Originally Posted By: Tinker
The long-length of the old barrels up the undersides of the 'new' barrels looks to be a way the guy who'd done this could run his original forend wood. Also it extends the area of the solder joint -- I wonder what they used to join these.


You're certainly right - of course with the much smaller diameter rifle barrels sleeved in (again notice the big "step"), the fore-end wouldn't fit, and that's certainly the function of it. But is what we're looking at a remnant of the old barrels, or did the smith make a "fillet" that is brazed or soft soldered onto the barrels much like the "shoe" on a set of shoe-lump barrels? Impossible to tell from the photos. Looks like the guy knew a little. The seam between the old outer tube and the new inner tube is unmistakable in the third photo.

The conversion wasn't done in the UK. The lack of re-proof would have been illegal there, and unheard of here.

Gaugedrifles, please let us know what you hear from the proof house. I'm quite conversant with British proof, and I can't imagine what mark, or remnant thereof, that mark could be. May I suggest that you also include all three photos, and ask them what they think? Make sure the size is like that above. I'd like to hear what they say, as it's a very interesting set of barrels.

BTW - I didn't mean to be laconic above. I regret that it wasn't the news that you probably wanted to hear.


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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