doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thoughts About "Stacked" Wad Columns

I never thought that "stacked" wad columns would come back into fashion. They have though, especially for "green", black powder, and specific high performance loads.

There are very high quality wads to meet these needs, now, too. Circle Fly and Ballistic Products, for example, offer some very interesting products, many of which have not been available for many years.

IMO, however, there are still some "holes" in the "stacked" wad selection that some enterprising entrepreneur might consider filling. E.g.:

1. "Cupped" paper overpowder wads that would be similar to those that were used in the old paper "Super-X" loads. These wads promise obturation advantages in "overbored" barrels and/or barrels that have long forcing cones.

2. "Air cushion" filler wads that would be similar to those that Burrard described. These wads had a cupped hollow base that acted as an "air pocket" that served to reduce shot deformation in the lower portions of shot charges. Ballistic Products offers a felt "donut" version of this wad that offers considerable promise but it is very likely that this wad will work well only with plastic OP wads. For loads with cardboard OP wads hollow-based filler wads seem to offer the most promise.

3. Cardboard or paper "shot concentrator" shot cups. While many of the old-time "shot concentrators" were more ingenious than they were effective (or safe) at least a few were very similar to modern-day plastic shotcups. It seems to me that it might be a good idea to offer such shotcups that would be made of either heavy paper or light cardboard.

I would sure have liked some paper over powder cup wads when I was shooting BP shotshells extensively. I used them extensively many decades ago. I did finally get a nice old hammer double with totally original forcing cone and bore dimensions, such that standard diameter card and fiber wads resulted in excellent patterns. But, most old hammer doubles I found had reamed bores, etc. that were too large in ID for card and fiber wads to seal nicely.

Niklas

DF-

Thanks for noting this on a discussion thread.
I've been making my own cup-shaped over powder cards and donut shaped felt wads for years.

I use them in loading for my bore rifles, the donut wads sit under the roundball and combined with the cup wads they give great gas seal and consistent results.

I wrote an email to the folks at ballistic products a moment ago asking if they'd make cup wads and donut wads in 12/16/20 gauge sizes.
I'd be thrilled to simply be able to buy them in bulk.
Still, making them isn't such a big deal, not too terribly much work considering the great results.



--Tinker

Would you consider describing how you make cup-shaped paper OP wads? My book that described how to make these wads has "gone missing".

Sherman Bell described making some in an article about BP rifle cartridges. He used milk cartons and said they were wax coated. I suspect they are coated with plastic now, rather than wax. I asked him about this in an email and he responded that he wasn't sure. At the time, I wanted to make some for 28 ga. shells to be used in a 28 with longer chambers and forcing cones. He basically made a punch and a sizing die to form them by pushing them through it. I made the cups OK but loading them into the shells was too much of a chore. I gave up trying to make good BP cartridges for the 28 hammer gun.
One of the foreign ammo companies announced a couple years ago that they were making paper shot cups for their shells. I emailed them about buying some but never got the courtesy of a reply.

DF-

See this image...





The arch punch shown may or may not be the exact punch I used, I just grabbed one here to illustrate...
The cylinder resting on the arch punch is the cup shaped card wad die, the brass punch is it's mate. The small ring with the straight knurl is simply a 'transfer' or holder from the die to the cartridge. I'd started in on these as components of a hand-loading set for a cased gun - have yet to finish that piece of work but I use this kit as is anyway.

First thing, at the diary section of your local market test the paper cartons with a finger or thumb nail. It will be easy to figure out which paper cartons are waxed, you'll be able to pick up some of the wax under a nail.
You will, no doubt, find that product to be the most wholesome/fresh/delicious, and convince your family to be loyal to that brand (until they change the packaging...)

The actual diameter of the core punch will depend on your bore diameter, the thickness of the card stock, and how much skirt length you want. Longer skirts might give better seal, but they will also take up powder space and be a little tougher to form.

Punch yourself a pile of discs.
I set the die up in the chuck of a lathe, and the punch in the tailstock - as they're aligned and on sliding ways already, but the effect can be accomplished on a bench and freehand.
One good thing about having it in a chuck is that you can mildly heat the die and punch, but that's not necessary, you can soften the card stock with rubbing alcohol and it will evaporate quickly, leaving you with your card wads and all of their wax unaffected.

Note the die.
It's got a shallow counterbore at it's 'mouth' where the pre-cut core discs sit waiting for the punch. I simply set the disc in the counterbore and gently drive them into the bore of the die, one after the other. They stack up inside the die and eventually come out one by one at the tail end.

From there you can transfer them into something like the little ring I made, which makes the transfer into a case mouth a wee bit easier than fiddling with tucking them in with fingertips.

Set them in with the cup's mouth facing the powder.

The red cup you see in that ring is recovered from the ejecta of a 3-dram double rifle shot. Note it's almost totally unaffected.
It did it's job and flew a short way down range. I could actually re-use it if I were so compelled.

Note the round ball and felt wads in the tweezers.
That's a .620 round ball for my Purdey, one circle fly wad, and one 'donutted' circle fly wad in between them, to illustrate the effect of 'donut' shaped felt wads under pressure. They bulge out and press against the bore, maintaining a great gas seal and effective lubricated bore wiping action.

The other cylindrical die is a simple crimp die for my 16b cartridges. Slip it on and press it down, crimp to follow...
That little die also to be part of the field hand-loading kit, doing fine on it's lonesome until I finish the die holder body (to be fashioned in Dixon-esque fashion)

This is how I've been loading my bore rifle cartridges.
They tend to work out very well.



--Tinker

Also, note that if you have established loads with other components, you will need to do some re-development if you switch to this cup-wad and 'donut' was arrangement.



Chers
Tinker


P.S.

I telephoned BP this morning asking if they'd consider offering this type of product in 12/16/20 (indluding the card cups) and the guy who answered the phone gave a vaguely negative answer.
Feel free to follow up with them at any time, perhaps with enough interest they will change their tune.
Don't count on it though...









.

Many thanks! This is very interesting and useful "stuff"! I hope that your description encourages other shooters to "go back to the future" with this kind of wad. (As I recall Greener describes a "Swedish" cupped OP wad that was very similar in principle to the "Super-X" OP wad and to the cupped OP wads that you make.)

In regard to "cupped" fiber filler wads: Do you use Don Zutz's procedure of using a Number 12 leather punch or a .410-bore wad cutter to cut through about 1/2 of the thickness of 3/8" (or less) wads and approximately 3/4 of the thickness of wads that are more than 3/8" thick? I suspect that these punch sizes are used for 12 gauge wads. I also understand that it is important to seat "cupped" fiber wads by themselves, void down, and with a minimum of wad pressure. Is this correct?

DF-

I don't know who Don Zutz is.
When I make wads or cards, I either take one of the twenty or so arch punches I have and whack away, or if I need a size I don't have I make one from stock.
Of all the punches I own, I think only one of them is marked with a firearm-specific diameter.

I cut my felt wads 'a bit oversize'
I build my cup-card OP wads to have a slight interference fit with the bore -- we're simply after a good gas seal.

For felt stock I shop from McMaster-Carr or from a local equestrian supply shop (saddle felt), typically the thickness I use is around 1/4"
In the bore rifle cartridges there is little room to fill, so I'm not aiming to fill space - rather I build my wad column to maximize consistency and to maintain bore condition shot-to-shot.
The 'filler wads' as you say, are typically a simple disc and donut stack, or just a donut - on top of a cupped card over-powder wad.

The over-powder card sits with the cup facing the powder.
The felt wads have the donut against the ball, the felt disc against the card, when present.

I do not use hard fiber filler wads at all.
The pressure on the powder is uniform for all of my black powder cartridges. No compression that would cause a bullet or shot column to creep at rest, yet firmly tamped in the hull or case.



--Tinker

the late Don Zutz was a very knowledgable writer of things shotgun related. His articles appeared in several prominent publications, as Handloader, American Rifleman etc. I could be wrong here, but seem to recall him as being more free-lance & not on the permanent staff of these mags.
I also recall back in the 60's Francis Sell was using perforated or cupped filler wads over a thick card with one of the then new Alcan PGS plastic wads turned upside down as a short shot cup & reporting very tight patterns. For loads which left enough space he used the full perforated filler sandwiched between two .200" thick cards as I recall & then the PGS atop that. If not enough space for the extra card he only cupped the filler to about half it's depth. For 12ga I believe he used a .410 wad cutter & about a 3/8" punch in 20ga (His Favorite in 3" length).