doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester or CSMC 21?

I've always lusted for a 20 ga. model 21 to keep my other guns company. Any thoughts about relative value (now or down the road) between an original Winchester 21 and a CSMC 21? Having a new one made would cost more, but I could specify stock dimensions, chokes, etc., it would be ok with steel shot (according to CSMC), and would have a lifetime warranty. But are they as desirable? What do you esteemed double gun lovers think (I realize it's entirely an opinion question, but I need some opinions)?
Joe

I'll start the ball rolling. I have an original 12 gauge set up for pigeons and Helice and I also ordered a 20/28 gauge CSMC for sporting as well. Both nice guns but both different. I agree that the CSM guns are getting out of range of the average person. I just called about a 12 or a 20 gauge and the price has increased very considerable. If I could find an original in somewhat the configuration I wanted I would choose it over a new one. The one good thing about the CSM is you can have it made anyway you want.

This exact topic has been discussed here before, and not too long ago.

Ah, a walk into the swamp. My short answer (i.e., humble opinion) is that a used CSM will be worth more. They are two different markets.

There are a lot of Winchesters. A lot. That keeps the price down. Nonetheless, it will be hard to find a Winchester in original form and high condition. Yeah, they're out there, but most of what you see will have some combination of 95% finish, refinished wood/steel, after-market pads, and so forth. These guns set the base price. There is a premium to be paid for original high-condition Winchesters, but it's not that big. I'm guessing maybe 30-50%, give or take. At any rate, for a lot less than $10,000 you can buy the end-all of original Winchesters. Bought right, it's value will only go up. That's one market.

The other market is CSM. Their buyers have probably looked at the originals in the market, shrugged, and reached into their pocket for an additional $5000. What they want and get is a shooter, certifiably new and shiny, and custom made to boot. Unless I have misjudged human nature, new and shiny counts for a lot.

If you are looking at smaller gauges like the 20, the price difference between the Winchesters and CSM narrow. What I hear yo saying is that you want a custom-made shooter. Yeah, it'll cost more, but it will be what you want, and I think it will always be worth more than a look-alike original.

Thanks, Greg, I did a search and found the thread. Lots of good comments. I also found a link to budrichard's model21shotgun.com website. A distressing thread that came up in my search was the bad experience markel(sp?) had returning a misrepresented Parker Repro. Lou has been very helpful/graceous talking to me about a possible CSMC 21 purchase, so far, but now I'm concerned about potential problems when ordering from CSMC. They seem to have had lots of returns for problems with RBLs, but as I remember, customers were happy with how CSMC handled their problems. More comments?
Joe

Joe, I purchased a new 16Ga Grand American CSMC 21 - 4 years ago and to date have put over 14K rounds through the gun at Sporting Clays and 5 Stand. I initially did have a couple of problems with the gun; however, the lifetime warranty and the fast service cannot be overlooked.

When the economy picks up, I'd probably purchase a CSM Fox in 20GA.

Joe, my customer service experience with CSMC has been favorable. I have bought a fair number of odds and ends (pads, butt plates, trigger guards, etc.) and when they made a mistake (once) they corrected it immediately. My only CSMC gun purchase was an RBL 20. It was PIF and took almost two years to get to me. Arrived with a small check (split) in the 3X wood and a minor difference from the specs on my order (I changed the order while in process). I called them, they told me to send it back, and in a couple of weeks I had the gun back in good order. I will be ordering another RBL in the near future.

I'm told by at least one old Win 21/CSM 21 owner that there are numerous small differences on the CSM guns to improve the reliability of the 21 design. The one that comes to mind is the widening of the rib solder joints to improve strength and resistance to ribs coming loose. Frankly, in seeing a CSM gun next to an orig Win, the fit of the metal parts is clearly tighter and the finish of the metal to metal parts is better on the CSM guns.

" also found a link to budrichard's model21shotgun.com website. "

I started studying and collecting Model 21's when I purchased Schwing's book on the Model 21 in 1990. It took a number of years, a lot of looking and a few Winchester's to get a firm grip on the Model 21 and Winchester versas CSMC. I first met Tony Galazan in the early 1990's and admired his guns but I still could at that time purchase Winchesters for less. Eventually the price of Winchester Custom Shop guns and 'Custom Built' in Mint condition rose high enough that CSMC guns became viable. CSMC also produces a true small frame Model 21 for the 28 and 410 gauge, something that Winchester never did. I have one CSMC Model 21 and couldn't be happier with the gun and service. I have another order with CSMC for a Fox because I wanted a lighter 16 gauge than my former 16 gauge Model 21 SKEET for upland hunting.
In regards to the difference between Winchester and CSMC Model 21's, its really manufacturing of two different eras and neither is better or worse.
I have stopped collecting and now delve only in bespoke guns to obtain what i want. I started the website to have a place for sane discourse about the Model 21 and have no relationship with CSMC other than a customer. Hope the website is/was of help.-Dick