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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,038
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,038 |
Randy, that Baker 20ga. would not be Damascus. it would have been fluid steel. I may be wrong though. I didn't think the 20ga. Baker was anything but fluid steel.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Dave;
I don't think he said it was a 20ga. I think he was saying there was positively not a 20ga shell ahead of it in the chamber.
I have no idea as to cause, but I don't much believe 5800psi caused thar & that kind of swelling in the head of the casing.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,159 Likes: 208
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,159 Likes: 208 |
RMC's Baker, if he is an experienced loader with the PW 800 series, is the classic "primer in the powder" type of blowup. A double powder charge would be extremely unlikely. However, when such an accident happens, step one is to dismantle all remaining shells to weigh the powder charges and look for other signs of problems. I don't care if I have 100 more loaded shells in the same lot, I will cut them all to pieces and weigh all powder charges.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 640
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 640 |
RMC's Baker should have had plenty of wall thickness at the point where it blew up. If there was no obstruction, those barrels must have been honed within a nanometer of their lives. IMHO, if you're going to be buying and shooting damascus doubles it makes sence to invest in a barrel thickness gauge. This seems like a must have tool to me.
tim
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 629 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 629 Likes: 1 |
I have seen a shotgun proved in Birmingham at 850 bar with a 2 3/4 chamber lenghtened from 2 1/2 and a barrel wall thickness of 83 thousandths at the muzzle end of the chamber.
My damascus barrel that I shot the 3 3/4 dram eq. with 1 1/4 oz load is 95 thou at the same spot. Not nitro proofed.
I still wonder how much do we increase the risc of blown up barrels with the higher pressure rounds?
If that Baker barrel was blown by only 6500 psi, there is nothing really safe to shoot.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,404 Likes: 109
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,404 Likes: 109 |
I don't own or shoot Damascus. However, I believe it is "safe" to do so with "modern" loads, assuming either a) a reload at appropriately low pressure; or b) factory loads matching the proof level of the gun in question.
I don't even use American factory ammo (that is, from Win/Rem/Fed--with one exception) in my steel-barreled, in proof, 2 1/2" Brit 12's from the 1930's. The exception would be the low pressure "vintage" loads Federal made up for Midway, somewhere in the 6,000 psi range if I recall. I either shoot shells like RST's or Kent Gamebores, or else I reload to appropriate low pressures. I'd feel safe doing the same thing with a Damascus gun, if inspected and given a "pass" by a knowledgeable doublegun smith.
Last edited by L. Brown; 12/07/08 05:05 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
...The exception would be the low pressure "vintage" loads Federal made up for Midway, somewhere in the 6,000 psi range if I recall. I either shoot shells like RST's or Kent Gamebores, or else I reload to appropriate low pressures. I'd feel safe doing the same thing with a Damascus gun, if inspected and given a "pass" by a knowledgeable doublegun smith. Midwayusa claims they are 5,000 psi. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=613940I would not be surprised if some measured closer to 6,000 psi. That would still put them in the very low end of the sprectrum. Pete
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,159 Likes: 208
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,159 Likes: 208 |
Pete, what piece of information do you have that would cause you to be less than surprised if the Federal loads for Midway measure 20% more pressure than claimed?
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,374 Likes: 424
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,374 Likes: 424 |
RMC's Baker, if he is an experienced loader with the PW 800 series, is the classic "primer in the powder" type of blowup. A double powder charge would be extremely unlikely. However, when such an accident happens, step one is to dismantle all remaining shells to weigh the powder charges and look for other signs of problems. I don't care if I have 100 more loaded shells in the same lot, I will cut them all to pieces and weigh all powder charges. Eightbore, Could you elaborate on the "classic primer in the powder type of blowup"? I'm not familiar with this. I'm also inclined to agree with Miller that 5800 psi did not cause that type of deformation of the case head. Maybe a wad from the previous shot lodged in the bore, was blown out with the destructive shot and found downrange with the rest. I don't routinely look thru the bores of my guns before reloading even though that is inherently easy with a double (except for a Darne). Maybe this Baker is a reason to try to develop a habit of looking before loading.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
William Greener tested some bars of various damascus metal by pulling them till they broke (Prior to wrapping into a bbl). The better grades showed tensile strengths of 60-76K psi. Some cheap bbls which contained no steel showed only 40K or less. This was 1834, no doubt these cheaper bbls fell by the way side & bbls were likely produced which had even higher strength than the Best of '34. By way of camparsion Wrought Iron has a strength of about 48K, Low Carbon open hearth steel about 56K while a piece of plain carbon 1035 steel will show from 83 to 96k depending upon its temper (1300°F to 800°F). More modern 4140 alloy steel (A common steel for gun bbls) starts at 110K at a temper of 1300°F up to 180K at 800°F. These are the tempertures to which the steel is tempered or drawn after heat treating. There is no question modern alloy steels used in todays guns exceed the strength of the vintage gun bbls whether steel or Damascus. Plain carbon steel having a carbon content greater than about 40-45 points was not really suitable for gun bbls so most early steel bbls are not really stronger than good damascus/twist bbls. By the time the breech loaders became commonplace most of the really poor damascus had been done away with. In speaking of a CA 1900 vintage Parker, Smith, Lefever, ETAL I think it really matters little which type bbl it has. That's why it pays to only shoot Vintage Damacus barreled guns that were originally High Quality...the higher grade guns had higher grade barrels.
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