doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester 25/35, 30/30 & 30/40

2-piper - I note from the writings of Philip B Sharpe in "The Rifle in America" page 232;
"In 1894 Winchester put on the market an entirely new action in their famous model 1894. The Reason for it's great effect on shooting was because it was the first rifle "Designed" to handle cartridges loaded with the then new Smokeless Powder. All guns prior to this had been made for black-powder cartridges and only adapted to smokeless as the smokeless numbers came out. The model 1894 was first designed to handle the .30/30, .38/55 and .32/40 cartridges. Of these nunbers, of course the .30/30 was the "Only Brand-New All Smokeless Number". both the .32/40 and .38/55 were black powder varieties. The .38/55 smokeless cartridge was announced July 6, 1895"
"In 1895 Winchester also introduced two new "All-Smokeless" numbers, the famous .32 Winchester Special and the .25/35 Winchester".
This was what Phil Sharpe thought about the origin of the .30WCF (.30/30). It is also noted the US Goverment introduced a .30 caliber "Smokeless Powder" cartridge for the Krag rifle which became known in sporting circles as the .30/40 Krag. This likewise did not derive from a charge of 40 grains of black powder. It would therefore seem we have the .25/35, .30/30 & .30/40 all with "Black Powder Sounding" nomenclature which were all originally designed as smokeless powder rounds. If in fact you have any evidence a factory loaded black powder .30WCF aka .30/30 cartridge was ever placed upon the market I would love to see it. There had been I believe a small cased, low powered cartridge on the market which indeed was a BP .30/30, but I don't recall off hand who made it. It in no way resembled the .30WCF however.
PS; Of course as already mentioned the round was developed by Winchester & they did not apply the /30 to it. The .30/30 designation was first used apparently by Marlin & started out as .30/30S (S = smokeless??), probably because they did not want to stamp "WCF" on their gun. There would thus seem to be no evidence the /30 ever referred to BP.

Miller

ellenbr - On that point 2-piper is correct so this is last call for me on the 0.30WCF info on this thread. This is from page 368 of Philip B. Sharpe's Treatise on Handloading, 1937, 1941, 1949, 1952, 1953 regarding the 0.30WCF:

"It was designed by the Winchester people for use in their Model 1894 repeater, a popular lever action which is made even today. The .30/30 cartridge was originally intended to be used with 30 grains of black powder, but the black powder and metal-jacketed soft-point bullets failed to get along very well together, and accordingly early loads were soon altered to handle smokeless powders."

Also in reprints of the 1911 Alfa Catalogue/"Arms of the World-1911", cartridges listed as 0.30 Winchester Smokeless soft point as well as one 0.30 Winchester Short Range Model 1894, as well as a 25-35 listing for the 1894. In the description it notes that smokeless will have a manteled bullet while black powder will have a lead version. Then there is a series of 4 Savage 30-30 Smokeless with the 3rd one being a short range version. The 3rd one doesn't have the "+" to denote smokeless powder as all others do but has what looks to be a new note stating that it is smokeless. The 4th cartridge is some "Covered Minature" round.

Then a reprint of a 1931 Winchester Catalogue shows the 0.30 Winchester as a "Staynless" cartridge with a full patch or softpoint. An additional listing shows 0.30 Winchester Superspeed(.30-30) with a 110 grain hollowpoint. There isn't a listing for a 0.30 Win in black powder but for those like the 0.25-20SS it lists a black powder/lead bullet combo, was well as a staynless/jacketed, which is a common thread throughout the listings. This seems to support Sharpe's statement of black powder not working with a jacketed bullet.

Most of the loads for the 25/35 I've seen were about 1/2 of 35. There were a few around 30 grains but I don't think I'd put 35 grains of smokeless in the round.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

2-piper - Raimey;
An "Old" Lyman handbook I have lists for the .25/35 using a 117gr bullet a max load of 3031 powder as 26.5grs with a suggested starting load of 21grs. I am in total agreement on your assesment of using 35grs smokeless in it. I suspect here the 35 was just thought to be a catchy phrase. This does bring up a very good point though, which I would appreciate if you would consider & give your thoughts on. Take the 4 cases of .25/35, .30/30, .32/40 & .38/55. The .30/30 case has more internal volume (powder capacity) than any of these except the .38/55. Now "IF" the .30/30 was intended as a "New" black powder cartridge "Why" would it have been a .30/30. It is rather obvious to me at least the second 30 has no reference to BP. Perhaps win did indeed intend it as a dual purpose round, available as a factory smokeless & reloadable with black. When this didn't work they shortly brought out the .32WS for this purpose. Dave Scovill of Handloader Magazine listed some old Winchester literature of the period stating this was indeed the reason for the .32WS. All the above mentioned loads of black for the .30/30 are short range loads & not full power. Winchester did not bring out the cartridge with this as it's primary purpose, they already had both the .32/20 & .32/40, the .30/30 was for a new niche A Smokeless Powder Cartridge.

Miller

A question I had regarding the "Short Range", what pressures could the Remington Rolling Blocks, and others with the 30/30 chambering, handle? By 1895 had they all accepted smokeless or were they black and smokeless depending on the cartridge?

This may be a partial answer from the "Arms of the World-1911" Alfa reprint. The "Winchester Trade Mark Model 1894" with a round barrel 51cm in length is offered in the following calibres: 25-35, 30W, 32W Sp., 32-40, 38-55. The ammo shown for the 30W is either "Short Range Model 1894" or "Smokeless". When you look in the ammo selection, 25-35, 30W, 32W Sp. are all smokeless while 32-40 black powder w/ mantled bullet, 32-40 Sh. R.(Short Range) Smokeless and 3 Savage offers in .32-40-165 Smokeless. Also the 38-55 is offered in black with mantled bullet, Short Range in black powder and high velocity smokeless. I'll have to revise my black & lead statement regarding the 32-40 and 38-55 or either this is an interim period of a work in progress.

"The Gun", Greener's 9th Edition, on "Trajectory of American Ammunition fired from Winchester Rifles" gives .25-20 W.C.F. as black & smokeless, .25-35 W.C.F.(Metal Patch Soft Point) 26 grains as smokeless, .30 W.C.F. Smokeless at 30 grains, .32 Winchester as black, .32-40 & .38-55 as black, or doesn't note smokeless.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm looking at a 1914 Hercules powder catalog. Not sure what all of this means, but they offer--------

FOR BLACKPOWDER RIFLES-- Adapted for Smokeless Powder, "SHARPSHOOTER [dense]" powder

They offer this powder in "Mid-Range Loads" with either alloy or copper cap base bullets .

.30-30 9 grains
.30-40 12 grains
.30-45 14 grains
.32-40 HP 15 grains
.38-55 HP 18 grains

From "Cartridges" by Herschel Logan of Salina, Kansas in 1959 gives a comparision of cartridges from UMC and Winchester catalogues of the 1890s:
25-35 Win. Smokeless by Winchester 25 grains
25-35 Win. Short Range by Winchester 35 grains(doesn't note smokeless)
30 Win. Smokeless Model 1894 by Winchester 30 grains
30 Win. Short Range by Winchester at 6 grains(doesn't note smokeless) but doesn't make sense for now
30 U.S. Army, Short Range 10 grains(doesn't note smokeless)
30 U.S. Army, Smokeless 38 grains
32 Winchester 20 grains(doesn't note smokeless)
32-40 all are 40 grains(doesn't note smokeless)
38-55 are 55 grains with the exception of
"Short Range" which is 20 grains(none are noted as smokeless)

So if anyone has a Winchester catalogue from the 1890s, it might help shed some light.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Cornellpubs.com...has all the old manuals reprinted...I use them to reload 38-55, 32-40, .30 WCF, 32-20 using the old original moulds. Good prices and fast delivery...I mix them in with the originals of the collection.....

My 1896 Winchester Ammunition
Catalog says under "smokeless cartridges"....does not list powder type..only grains...:

25-20----8.5 gns
30 win metal patched----30 gns
30 u.s.----40 gns
32-40----17 gns
38-55----19 gns
38-56 win----25 gns
40-65 win----27 gns

And about twenty others, all under smokeless powder...it also gives bullet weights for each...
Hope this helps....

According to what I am seeing in this old catalog and others, Winchester used 30 grains in the 30-30 AKA 30 WCF..so continued on with the BP mentality..i.e., bullet size-powder charge..AT FIRST anyway....30-40 U.S.....same thing...it just happened to fit............BUT then they had trouble because somebody loaded 70 grains of smokeless in a 45-70......probably a trap-door as well...?

Raimey and all, the Hercules catalog I mentioned had lots of other calibers listed in their "substituting" smokeless powder for blackpowder loads. I can list them if you think it important.

Williamson's book on Winchester states the Model 1894 came out in two cartridges, the blackpowder 32-40 and 38-55. He mentions that happened in 1894. In Aug. of 1895 Winchester announced, along with the new stronger Nickel Steel barrels, two new smokeless powder calibers, the 25-35 and Winchester 30 [30-30]. Both developed by Winchester for their own rifles. The appendix in this book lists centerfire cartridges manufactured by Winchester and the powders for same. They list the 30-30 only in smokeless [30 WCF]starting in 1895. The only 30 caliber blackpowder load listed seems to be the 30-30 Wesson with a 165 grain bullet.

PA24:

Any listing for Win. 25-35?

Mr. Hallquist:

I think a listing of black & smokeless would be beneficial say for:
25-35
30 Win.
30 U.S. Army
32 Win. Sp.
32-40
38-55 or any that we know is a black designation but has a converted smokeless.

It would give some ground truth or a baseline from which to compare. From Logan's book, either the 35 grains for the 25-35 is a misprint or black powder because I don't see how it could be "Short Range". It we knew approx. the smokeless load, something larger or out of range might well be black.

Kind Regards and Thanks for the input,

Raimey
rse