doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester 25/35, 30/30 & 30/40

It's not my intent to take this thread off on a tangent but I thought I'd post this very interesting box of 32 Colt pistol cartridges here. This is the ONLY box of cartridges loaded with BLACK POWDER I have ever run across in this caliber. As a time reference here; the Colt Police Positive lock was introduced in 1905.
Jim

Raimey, the previous five calibers listed are noted for "Mid-Range Loads" Hercules states the Sharpshooter can be used in these additional loads as bp substitutes, not specifically called Mid-Range.

22-15-60 Stevens 5 gr
22 Win. S.S. 5.7 gr
25-20 Win and Stevens S.S. 9 gr
25-20 marlin and Win. Repeeater 7 gr
25-25 Stevens 9 gr
32 Win Auto 8 gr
32-20 W C F High velocity 10.5 gr
35 Win auto 11.6 gr
38-40 WCF High Velocity 19 gr
38-55 High Vel. 20 gr
38-70 Win and Marlin 19.5 gr
44-40 WCF High Vel 19 gr
45-70 USA Regular 22 gr
50-110 Win High Vel 47 gr
50-110 Win Regular 28 gr

The catalog also offers Unique powder manufactured for less than 32 cal. , especially where the bullet has a short bearing surface. It is a quick burning smokeless substitute and is used in small charges. They list--

STANDARD LOADS
22-15-60 3.5 gr
22 Win SS 3.5 gr
25-20 SS 4.5 gr
25-20 Repeater 4gr
25-25 Stevens 5 gr
32-20 WCF [for rifles only] 5.2 gr
38-40 WCF [for rifles only] 9 gr

SHORT RANGE LOADS
303 Savage 5gr
33 WCF 4.6 gr
38-55 Win, Marlin and Savage 6 gr
30-40 USA 6.5 gr

Interesting as those values seem small when compared to some of the advertisments. On the 25/35, 30/30(I don't think was of Winchester origin)-0.30WCF & 30/40, the last value must have been a max value or some semi-smokeless/non nitroglycerine one if not black. On the 0.30 U.S. Army-30/40Krag most loadings are approx. 1/3 less than 40 and when 40 is used, the pressure approaches a value greater than 42k psi and considering the early rifle receivers were case hardened and not really heat treated, trouble was on the horizon.

It was around the time of you Hercules catalogue, circa 1915, that Du Pont replaced the MR(Military Rifles) powder series with the progressive burning IMR(Military Rifle Powder).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I am just not very well educated in "rifle" things. My thought is that the loads listed by Hercules might generate pressures similar to black powder so the loads could be used in "blackpowder guns". I, too, thought there must be a small volume , generally, for the listed powder loads. Yes, the 30-30 listed could be the Wesson one.

My understanding is that the current commercial 45/70 ammo is loaded to slightly under black powder pressures with smokeless powder. This is to ensure safety with weapons with weak actions such as the Springfield Trapdoor.
Also,if memory serves me correctly, the 32 Winchester Special, was originally created as a black powder alternative to the 30-30.
Jim

Raimey:

25-35 Winchester #5 Winchester primer..Winchester metal patched....26 gns smokeless.....117 gn ball "$5.00 per 1000"...

25-36 MARLIN #5 primer....106 gn soft point metal patched...14 gns smokeless.......??????

The 25-36 is basically the same as the 25-35 so why the large descrepency in powder charge...even with a lighter bullet ??? Interesting ..

It looks as if Du Pont #1 Rifle Smokeless, dipped/scooped by volume, not by weight, was used from 1894 to 1926 in the following:
.22 Win SS, 0.22/15, .22/16 Stevens, .25/20 Repeater, .25/20SS, .25/25 Stevens, .32/20 Win., .32/40 Win., Marlin & Ballard as well as .38/55 & .38/56. It is with this powder with a load of 36 grains that the 0.30 U.S. Army, 30/40, sailed at 1952 ft/s and a pressure near 32.5k psi.

Du Pont Smokeless Rifle #2, 1894 - late 1920s, was used in the 45/35/255 Colt, 44/40/200 Win, 38/40/180 Win. & Colt at 16 grains.

Hercules Sharpshooter #1, 1897 on, was one of the 1st double base/nitroglycerine rifle powders and was manufactured by Laflin & Rand from 1897 to 1902 by Du Pont. The name was changed to Hercules post 1914. It was designed for the 45/70.

Hercules Lightning #1 began in 1899 with Laflin & Rand, which was absorbed by Du Pont in 1902. 0.30/30 & .303 were some of the thoughts in the design. Hercules Unique also had the 30/30 in mind as well as the 38/55 in the light and mid-range rifle catageory.

Hercules W.A.(Whistler & Aspinwall) 0.30 Caliber began in 1898 and was discontinued in 1930. It was designed for the long and heavy bullets of the 33 WCF & 35 Win and also the 0.30 U.S. Army with most of the 0.30 U.S. Army, 30/40 Krag, ammo of WWI being loaded with Whistler & Aspinwall powder but the barrels were lifeless by 2k rounds.

So my question would be what was the 0.30 WCF loaded with from 1895 - 1898? If it was #1 Rifle, did the scoop lead to 35 grains for the 25/35, 30 grains for the 0.30WCF and 40 grains for the 0.30 U.S. Army?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey:
The 1896 Winchester Catalog for Ammunition and Reloading reads as follows:

"The smokeless cartridge in point of excellence differs from the black powder cartridge only in smokelessness and cleanliness. Velocity and penetration remain the same. In the other class of cartridges may be numbered the .236 Navy, 25-35 Winchester, .30 U.S. Army, and .30 Winchester Smokeless. These are purly smokeless cartridges. The velocities obtained cannot be gotten with black powder, nor have we been successfully able to use lead or alloys without metal patches. These are cartridges belonging entirely to the smokeless powder class and cannot be used with black powder. Their excellence is in high velocity and consequent flat trajectory. "

In reading other data in the reloading section it states that Winchester at that time (1896) was loading with the following smokeless powders:
1. "E.C."
2. "Schultze"
3. "S.S."
4. "DuPont"
5. "Hazard"

I think the granular size and the case size dictated the load at first...not the "scoop"..obviously they experimented with fast and slow burning smokeless from the manufacturer's ...but even back then, they knew that whichever powder "most completely filled" the case, results were best...

Hope this helps....
Best Regards,

For black powder Winchester was using the following in 1896:

1. American Powder Mills rifle cartridge #4
2. Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle"
3. E.I. Dupont "DuPont Rifle"
4. Laflin & Rand Powder Company's "Orange Rifle"

All "double FF G" powders....

F.Y.I.

BRGDS,

In a reprint of a June 1923 Winchester Product Catalog it list 0.30 Winchester(.30-30 Smokeless) for Winchester, Marlin, Remington-Lee and Savage rifles. It also lists a "Short Range SMOKELESS ROUND" with 117 grain lead bullet. Another note is the "Supplemental Chamber" offer of 0.30 Winchester Caliber for use with .32 S&W. Last, .32 Colt New Police was offered with a 98 grain bullet in black powder & lead, smokeless powder and lead and mid range smokeless powder and lead.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse