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Hello, I am fairly new to the forum and to French guns. I have wanted one for a while and I came across this one. The stock is broken at the wrist but that is alright as I have restocked guns before and enjoy doing it. My question is,can anyone help interpret the proof marks for me. As far as I can tell it is double proofed. Basic description-Box lock with side plates. Engraved game scenes all over it. Floral pattern on the top. 27 1/2 inch barrels, extractors, double triggers, prince of whales grip, and a hi bird butt pad patented 192? Proof marks say- Right Barrel- Canon de surete, Garne? Double Prreu, Canon Fanget, 65, 18.4, G, double proof marks from st Ettienne Left Barrel- Quality Super Bure?, Agier Inexplosible, Crochet Encastre, M&P?, Double proof St Ettienne marks, and 18.4, also a stamp with an old looking soldier with shield and something written above that I cant make out. The area around the lug is marked- 65, Choke Rectefie Marsot, crown with PT under it, Fermeture Integrale, two crowns with a v under each one, "Spirobloc", Portee Garante, and a dragon riding on top of an arrow. The water table on the action has pt with a crown over it and a serial number of 65 marked on the action, stock, barrels, forearm. It is written in gold lettering on the trigger gaurd Gatimel Marseille. I was told it was a 12 bore, with 2 1/2" chambers, but I am wondering if it is actually a 16ga. Don't mind either way. Any help would be appreciated. I have attached pictures below. ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Gatimel014-1.jpg) ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Gatimel015.jpg) ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Gatimel016.jpg) ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Gatimel019.jpg) ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Gatimel018.jpg) ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Gatimel028.jpg) ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/pix533529359.jpg) ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Gatimel044.jpg)
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Well you probably already know this but 65 on the barrel is 2 1/2", and is the chamber length, and 16.4 converts to .6456 . So a 16 is a good guess.
Mark
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Very interesting marks. In 1885 Parliament cancelled obligatory proof in France and I think obligatory proof wasn't passed back into law until 1960, becoming effective in 1962. So I would say most of the stamps are advertising or an attempt to persuade a hunter or shooter that this longarm will pass the test of time, but a very interesting fire breathing dragon on an arrow. At 18.4mm it would be a 12 bore. Also sideplate engraved boxlock. I wonder what the "Crown" over "V"s are?
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 01/30/09 09:16 PM.
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The more I look it must be a 12 bore. It has 18.4 marked on each barrel which I believe equates to a 12 bore.
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According to Wirnsberger it was an accidental mis-wording of the law which did away with the obligatory proof in 1885, & thus made it voluntarily. It seems though the French went merrily along in continuing to have their guns proofed. the Crown/PT was a smokeless proof performed with Powder T which was introduced about 1901, at least after 1900. I do not find any reference to those Crown/V marks in French proof either. The other marks would tend to indicate proof from 1901-1923.
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The only proof I have seen that looks like the crown with v is an english proof. I can't find any other marks though that would indicate british proofing. I have never seen a dragon like that either. One of the marks looks like a soldier with a spear and shield as well.
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I don't think I've ever seen a French double that wasn't proofed at either St Etienne or Paris, so the fact proof was not "obligatory" does not seem to have made much difference--unless you happen to find that rare exception (which I've never seen): a French gun without proofmarks. Some of the photos are a bit blurry, and although some French barrel flats contain enough writing to constitute a short novel, this one comes close to being the all-time champion--and includes some expressions I've never seen. Here's what I can tell you--and as Raimey said, a lot of the stuff on the flats is basically "advertising": canon de surete--safety barrels double epreuve--double proof canon Fanget--Fanget made the barrels (I've seen Fanget barrels on a lot of French guns) qualite super whatever (can't make out the last word)--super quality something acier inexpolisble--the steel won't blow up crochet encastre--has to do with the type of action choke rectifie--regulated chokes (but they don't tell you what they are; never do on French guns) fermeture integrale--integral closing (has to do with the lockup, but that's one I've never seen before) portee garantie--the range is guaranteed (but they don't tell you what the range is) Crown over a V--not a standard French proofmark; any guesses, anyone? Spirobloc--either has something to do with the action, perhaps like "Helicobloc" which is seen on many French guns; if so, it's sort of like a Scott spindle in reverse--or else designed by Spiro Agnew ![](/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) Gatimel--we had one of those show up recently. Big sporting goods store in Marseille, apparently still in business. Not the maker of the gun. I have never seen the dragon mark before. The only really important things of all the above are: 2 1/2", double proof, and French.
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2-piper you are correct on the mis-wording. I too think all French guns experienced proof even though the politicians didn't think it too important but the makers realized the importance of proof, whether obligatory or voluntary, because the industry as a whole was at stake. Still no idea on the "Crown" over "V". What are the marks opposite the "Crown" over "V"s on right tube flats and what are the marks just forward of the flats on the tubes near the lower rib?
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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There is also a mark with a soldier holding a shield and sword with words over it. I will try and take some clearer shots of the proofs and repost them here. Do you think this gun is from the 1920s? It is very well built and the metal to metal and wood to metal fit was very good. I know it is no Best gun, but it does not look like a field grade either. Looks like it will be a very fun gun to restore and shoot. I don't think it has been shot a lot. The bluing is not worn, and most of the case coloring is intact, even in areas where handling marks should be.
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Larry, Thanks for the translation. I was hoping either you or Ted would take a jab at it. Some of it had me going in circles. I agree about Gatimel. I know the Belgians could register a trade mark and often did. I assume the same was true for the French. I have never seen an attempt to correlate all the French trade marks. Even Who is Who for the French guns does not attempt the subject. So, either you know the trademark or you are left confused. wburns, You can go here and try to find some of those trademarks: http://littlegun.be/arme%20francaise/a%20accueil%20arme%20francaise%20gb.htmYou may also want to drop Alain an email to see if he can help. There is a broad group who will be able to see the images that way. Pete
Last edited by PeteM; 02/01/09 04:03 PM.
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Pete, the dragon trademark is a new one to me.
Raimey, if you're talking about the mark in an oval, I'm guessing that's where it says "Canon Fanget".
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Larry, Have you ever seen a marking with the soldier with a shield and sword? It is the mark in the upper left corner of the first picture.
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I believe "crochet encastre" means that the hook with its base is brased into the action block, like on the Halifax.
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With the new pic post I now see 2 of the 3 marks which are the number "65" and the letter "G". The one in the oval I can't make out is just under "ENCASTRE'" on the left tube. Quite odd, but it appears the serial number or assembly number is "65" as found near the lower rib and on the watertable. Then there are the "65" stamps on the flats for the cartridge length which are independent of the assembly numbers and it is that which makes it odd. It could be from the 1920s, it is just difficult to say. But at some point, maybe in 1946, like the Belgians, the weight of the barrels was supposed to be stamped along with the length of the tubes. And Saint Etienne used the "NORMAL" stamp for chamber dims of 65mm and was supposed to be a result of the 1914 International Proof Conference in Brussels. I'm not sure if it was in 1924, 1946 or 1960(kind of doubt it). But post 1962 if a chamber was stretched 5mm or if the weight of the tubes was reduced more than 6%, then the longarm had to experience reproof. What was the patent date on the recoil pad?
Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 02/01/09 12:22 PM.
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The gun has 65 stamped on the trigger gaurd, on the forearm metal, and penciled on the gun stock between the two screws that attach the trigger gaurd to the stock, so 65 must be the serial number as well as the chamber length.
The pad is a Jostam Hy-Gun (I think I mistakenly said Hy-bird in my above post)with a patent date of Sep, 20th, 1927.
I can't make the oval out clearly as only the bottom half came out when it was stamped. I know the first letter is M then it looks like the symbol & followed by what looks like P, so tt would be an oval with M&P in it.
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I just found on another board that a crown over V was used by England to show that a gun passes proof in their country.
"The "Crown over V" is a view mark which was used from the 19th century up until 1954"
Maybe the two together equal double proofing just as the St Etienne marks do. It is stamped on both barrels just like the French proof marks.
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Do not recall a mark with a soldier as on your gun.
Odd that 65 would be the SN, but I don't see another one anywhere else.
I've seen a lot of French doubles with 65MM chambers and no "normal" mark. According to Kennett, it was in effect from 1924-62; however, in the text of that article, he also states that it was an either-or thing--either the chamber length in MM or "normal" if 65MM. Since this one has the 65 stamp, that would mean "normal" was not required.
As for barrel weight, it's stamped on most (maybe all?) post-1924 Belgian guns, but I don't think it's often seen on French guns.
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The side plates even have 65 stamped under them. Also the screws have 65 etched into them. There is one 65 mark directly on the right barrel. The 65 which I think refers to 65mm is stamped on both barrel flats by the lugs. The mark on the upper left of the barrel is the soldier. It is hard to see in pictures. It is a midevil looking soldier with a shield in his right hand while he is leaning on a sword held in his left hand. He has a frock hanging off him similar to the templer one you see in the movies with cross on it. There is no cross though on the soldier in the stamp. He has Qualite stamped to the left of him. Super Bure or Bore to the right of him. Agier Inexplosible below him and something that looks like depose above him. Here is a close up. ![](http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/topleftproofofmasterpictureBlurryle.jpg)
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Odd that 65 would be the SN, but I don't see another one anywhere else.
I've seen a lot of French doubles with 65MM chambers and no "normal" mark. According to Kennett, it was in effect from 1924-62; however, in the text of that article, he also states that it was an either-or thing--either the chamber length in MM or "normal" if 65MM. Since this one has the 65 stamp, that would mean "normal" was not required.
With it penciled on the stock, the number on the forend, watertable, underside of the right tube, etc., I would definitely say it is the serial number and as I posted earlier quite curious and possibly 1 of a small handful where the chamber length and serial number were the same. The "65" on the flats is for the chamber only. For now I think the probability to be very near zero for the "Crown" over "V"s stamps to be of British origin. Where might one find the text by the Kennett cat? Kind Regards, Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 02/01/09 06:04 PM.
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The soldier isn't at all familiar to me. The lettering on the barrels is still fuzzy, but I think probably a letter got omitted and it should read "Qualite Superieure"--superior quality. Maybe Pierre had one too many glasses of wine at lunch. ![](/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) Raimey, Kennett published a series of articles on proof in Gun Digest, basically updating Baron Engelhardt's earlier work. The one on French proof comes from Gun Digest, 1970.
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Yes partial letters can't be made out. Dose Qualite Depose Super Bure mean Super quality patent bore?
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Usually, it's marque deposee--which means that the trademark or name is registered.
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It has what looks like depose written above the soldier. It must be the registerd trade mark.
I can't wait to get the stock fixed. I want to try it out. I am going to have a new stock duplicated once I fix the break. I am going to try a few brands such as RST and B&P, and maybe polywad.
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It has what looks like depose written above the soldier. It must be the registerd trade mark.
That'd be it.
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It means dovetailed lump. "Crochet" is "hook" and is used for lump. The other wording definitely is a badly stamped "qualite superieure"
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When you look at the view of the flats the lines either side of the lug are visible where the underlump is fitted. This view of course does not show whether it is conventional or dovetail, but definitely not chopper lump. A view of the joint under the extractor would show the dovetail joint.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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From what I learned here, my poor French, and what I learned on the Darne forum I have listed below. I was told over on the Darne forum that the V with crown is an English mark for reproofing. It looked identical to one I found on the web describing reproofing of guns in England.
Is a dovetail lump a cheap way to finish a gun, or is it just another method with no real disadvantage?
Also found out M&P is a barrel maker who bought out Fanget.
Here are my findings. If anyone sees anything wrong or can help on the unidentified symbols I appreciate the comment.
Lettering on Barrels
1. Qualite Depose Super Bure with knight symbol= Super Quality trademarked Bore (barrel)-The symbol of the knight with shield and sword is the trade mark?
2. Acier Inexplosible= Steel will not blow up.
3. Crochet Encastre= Hook with the base braised into the action block.
4. Canon Fanget= Fanget was the barrel maker
5. Canon De Surete Double Peruffe= Safety Barrels (basically saying barrels were safe to use for construction of the gun)
6. 65= Serial Number
7. G=?
8. 18.4= 12 Bore
9. Double palm leafs and crown repeated twice with the name St Etienne= Double Proofed at St. Etienne
10. M&P = Merley and Pouly “barrel maker who took over Fanget” located in Andrezieux
Lettering on Barrel Flats
11. Choke Rectifie Marsot= Regulated Chokes by Marsot (Company or Builder)
12. Fermeture Integrale= Integral locking mechanism of the action.
13. Portee Garante= Range is Guaranteed. I do not know what the range would be.
14. “SPIROBLOC”= Maybe the type of action?
15. Crown with PT under it= Smokeless Proof using powder T after 1900
16. 65= 2 ½” chamber length
17. Crown with V under it repeated twice= double reproof mark performed in England after it left France.
18. Dragon riding an Arrow= Trade Label of maker possibly? If so who?
Lettering on Trigger Bow 19. Gatimel Marseille= The outfitter who sold the gun in Marseille which still is active.
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Here is perhaps the authoritatively correct spelling for what everyone else translated. hon hon hon.
déposé qualité supérieure acier inexplosible St-Etienne
crochet encastré choke rectifié Marsot fermeture intégrale spirobloc portée garantie
canon de surlie garanti double épreuve canon Fanget
PT and one crown - smokeless proof - Poudre T... T for niTro.
Barrel for canon de surlie and steel for acier inexplosible have something to relate with twist steel, surlie meaning made of twisted strands and inexplosible meaning it will not explode - not that it won't blowup but instead of chattering to pieces it will just bust some seams... oh la la... But this is not a Damascus, is it? I figure with all the markings you have, the guy with the stamps got carried away and used everyone he could find.
Could the logo beneath the 'déposé' be the image of a bird, of a hawk type bug as the brand Fanget is also known as 'épervier' for hawk, and they also used bird related designations for various products. I also want to say they used 'le gaulois' in some situations too. The picture given of the soldier could correspond to that of a Gaul, the round shield and heavy sword correspond, perhaps, if there is also a winged helmet and braided hair, we have a perfect fit. But I am drawing on comic book superhero attire at this point.
An opinion on the V shaped proof mark - I don't really see a vee, I think it is more resembling of the Paris proof mark of a crown above a square-ish shield with the picture of the sail boat... a vee-shaped sail? Oui oui. At least the crossed palm of the St-Etienne proof are well defined.
The 65... Since shells come in dangerous lengths, 65, 67, 70, it's all metric and mysterious, I would find it natural for the gun maker to put that number everywhere as a warning. And serial numbers, essentially, I am not sure French hunters care at all.
Authoritative? It really is only a bunch of loose ideas to google around with, not an expert opinion at all.
Have fun
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Thanks SixBears, I can't find how to put the guatle mark on top of the letters.
65 is even etched onto all of the screws and written on the stock, so it had to mean a serial number as well as chamber length. The V is most definatly a V. It has the classic line on top of each line forming the V like a Roman Numeral type V. It is hard to see in the picture but not in hand, however there could be a square around it, but it is hard to see.
The symbol is also definatly a soldier, and not a bird. It is easier to see in person than on the photo. Very hard to take pictures of it.
It does not have damascus barrels.
Thanks for the comments, hopefully I will be able to narrow it down to a time period it was built.
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I speak French, but I'm no good with the accent marks either, on a computer!
6Bears, it's "canon de surete". I've seen that on a lot of French guns. Those are safe barrels, I guess.
Concerning #1, the depose does not go with the qualite superieure. Depose relates to the mark underneath it, meaning the mark is registered or trademarked. Qualite and superieure go together--superior quality--even though the trademark is in between. Refers either to the quality of the barrels or the steel from which they're made.
Dovetail lump is less expensive than chopper lump, and chopper lump is always taken to be a mark of a higher quality gun. But in fact, most British guns were also made with dovetail lumps, and it's a perfectly sound system.
Crown over a V would not be a British reproof mark. That'd be crown over an R. If the V were in a circle with a crown over it, that would be the British mark for a foreign arm, from 1925-55. Without the circle, V under a crown is the view mark of the London proofhouse. Wonder if maybe the gun wasn't imported to England? But I don't know what other marks they would have put on the gun, in addition to that one. Still a bit of a mystery.
Even though you do need to watch out for shells of the wrong length, I've never seen 65 stamped all over a gun like that. Usually on a French gun, the only place you find them is on the barrel flats, right where these are marked. And it's very unusual to find a French gun without a serial number.
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I will have to go in and have someone measure the chamber length to be certain. I am pretty sure they are 2 1/2",and are not 2 3/4". However just to be sure they are not 2 inch I will have it measured. It is a very sound gun. It locks up like new and the barrels are in perfect condition with no pitting or dull spots. They are shiney and ring like bells. I just finished pinning the gunstock today. I am going to send it in after I get it fit exactly to my demensions and have a new one cut out on a pattern machine.
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Note that 65mm converts to 2.559" or near to 2 9/16" (2.5625"), though this length is often referred to as a nominal 2½". As Larry stated the Chopper Lump is generally regarded as "The Best" though there are pros & cons to this. Chopper Lump requires the bbls & lumps be made of the same mat'l. As the lump in the dovetail construction is a seperate piece it can thus be made of a higher grade of steel than would normally be used for the bbls. As the breeches of both types are joined by brazing any previous heat treatment would be lost. Dovetail Chopper lump & the mono-block were both developed for the purpose of eliminating the necessity of brazing so tube strength could be increased by some heat-treatment.
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...Dovetail Chopper lump & the mono-block were both developed for the purpose of eliminating the necessity of brazing so tube strength could be increased by some heat-treatment. Miller, Remember the mono-block was Pieper's 1881 patent. The guns he produced from that design, the Diana, had a fluid mono-block and damascus barrels. So no heat treatment. It may have gained in popularity later because the barrels could be treated. Pete
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Damascus bbls were increased in hardness & strength by hammering, especially if hammered until cold. While not specifically heat-treating this is known as "Work-Hardening". This increase also is destroyed by the heat required in brazing, so in effect the same principal applied.
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It's always a good idea to measure chamber length, but I don't believe the French ever built any 2" guns, so I think you're safe on that score.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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PT and one crown - smokeless proof - Poudre T... T for niTro.
Could you source the “T” in nitro? It is possible, but there were J, S, R, M and possibly other powders about the same time. The French seem to have had the theoretical handle on semi-smokeless powders from the get-go. In the 1830s, Braconnot began the quest for a powder based on nitric acid as a professor at Nancy. In the late 1830s, French chemist Pelouze continued or confirmed Braconnot’s experiment using cotton and linen. Then in the mid 1840s Christian Fredxerick Schoenbein, Swiss chemist at Basle, who used his wife’s kitchen for a lab and with her apron absorbed a nitric acid spill and put it on the line. He thought he was in the clear but while the sunlight heated the apron, with acid, on the line, his confidence went up in flames. The question of who invented guncotton is between Pelouze and Schoenbein, who sold his secret to Austria. By the 1870s, Frederick Volkmann of Vienna was making Schultz and Volkmann powders under Volkmann K.K. Priv. Colliding-Fabriks Gesellschaft, H. Pernice & Company. The Austrian government closed his plant due to the applied, heavy license fees. But Paul Vielle in 1886 delivered Pouder B, which was named after General Boulanger. At the same time the French government peddled the inferior Poudre BN which contained metallic nitrates. Interesting too as to the influence of the French on powder advances, that is with American Industrial influence. On New Years day in 1800, Eleuthere Irenee du Pont de Nemours, son of Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours, compadre of Antoine Laurent Lavoisier who was a causality of the guillotine, arrived in Rhode Island after 91 days at sea eating boiled rats for sustiance the latter part of the trip. Lavoisier had been a tax collector for the French Crown and he decided to delve in gunpowder which was a huge benefit to the American rebels in the mid to late 1770s. Pierre Samuel had learned under Lavoisier and had escaped France and its guillotine. The short of the Du Pont story is that most, including Lamont Du Pont, with the exception of Henry, met their demise while making gunpowder or dynamite. And V L & D, after an explosion in Spring of 1881 in Binghamton, NY, formed a company, American Wood Powder???, to took over the Dittmar(Carl Dittmar of the Prussian Factory of Spandau near Berlin) powder production. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 02/09/09 10:28 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "sourcing" T powder. There are official French proofmarks to indicate proof with the other smokeless varieties (J, S, M, and R) as well as T. However, according to Kennett, T was the last to be developed, in 1900. But Kennett adds that the others were all insufficient to meet the 12,000 psi minimum set by the Brussels convention and all (except T) were dropped in 1914. (That would be another good hint for dating a French gun: if the smokeless proof is anything but T, it had to be 1914 or earlier.) And T is the only one of those still being manufactured. Those powders were all the product of the French government, which maintained a monopoly on powder production in that country.
I'm also unclear where there were any American "rebels" in the 1870's.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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L. Brown:
Thanks for checking my post and that would have been 1770s and I'll correct that in the post. True T was the last to be developed and I think I've seen a reference noting T as Troisdorf, but it is Austrian, adopted by the Swiss for their military. The mark for J & S was introduced March 30th, 1896 and the mark for R & M on May 14th, 1898. The French at one time, and may to this day, prohibited any import of foreign powder. From the noted 1780s at the French Powder Works at Essons, with Bertholler at the helm, to the 20th Century were very tight lipped about info on their powders. The Belgian powder Wetteren L3 was very similar to the French Poudre B. Interesting though that Eleuthere Irenee du Pont de Nemours went back to France for capital provided by Jacques Biderman, Catoire, Duquesnoy et Cie, Necker along with Archibald McCall of Penn., Pierre Bauduy of Wilmington, Delaware and NY firm of Du Pont de Nemours Pere et Fils, et Cie but held a very tight, possibly unbroken, relationship with the U.S. Goverment as a source for powder.
My question was who or what was the Poudre "T" named after?
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 02/09/09 11:00 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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No indication in either Engelhardt or Kennett as to what the letters stood for. My guess would be . . . nothing. Simply different designations for different formulations of bulk smokeless.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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niTro That's the question French logic aside, I think it is very hard to see any sense in the way powders were letter coded. I don't know whether we are trying to find symbolism to what was otherwise a meaningless choice from the marketing department of some old powder company, at any rate, here are a few further thoughts on the topic. I did find a bunch of books in the Google library and other history sites. All I am trying to do is pull it all together and perhaps add to what everyone else has already posted - even if it just seems like I am pompously repeating all the good stuff. Starting from the beginning, P for poudre and N for noire is the obvious acronym for black powder. An N just like in nitro. This is going to be confusing. It seems clear however that PN is never used to label any type of nitro powder, though there is such a thing as Explosif N where N is for nitroblahblah and there is also Explosif O, Cheddite, Oooh. Stepping back in history for a second, we have to realize that in the before-nitro-powder age, there wasn't much fuss about knowing whether we were dealing with black powder or not -- all the stuff was black powder and so, designations were made on a quality basis and it seems the coloring of the powder itself was used as the recognition of quality. For instance reddish powder was made with the 'charbon roux' that was made in cheaper fashion than from the ideal wood at the ideal carbonizing temperature. Designations about grain size were all important too along with storage conditions and expiration dates. Interestingly, the quality powder came from Switzerland and was referred as the Poudre Suisse (PS? What? Nahh), it was also referred as the Poudre de Berne (PB? What now?) Still to this day it seems the French import their fine black powder from the poudrerie d'Aubonne near Geneva. Simply, black powder was made into just a few categories. There seems to have been the poudre fine for deluxe applications, the poudre de guerre for war effort, the poudre de mine for underground operations, the poudre de traite for open resale to the public and the poudre de tir for shooting everything else. That was still only black powder: charcoal, sulfur and saltpeter. Mix mix mix, bang. And shopping for some good old Poudre de Tir was on everyone's grocery list. Then came the nitro age of cellulose dissolved in acid, stabilized in jello, polished, coated and shaped in so many variations. It was also the age of Napoleon and Jules Verne's Capitaine Nemo. Was N in or out? Lacking in logic again, the first wide spread designation that became useful after fulmicoton, guncotton and cotton-powder was the stabilized Poudre B first produced in 1884 and introduced to the military in 1886. The first of the whole nitro- and trinitro- family. PB and B is for... well... it could be as simple as the second letter of the alphabet, but it is not. It seems there is a whole variety of origins on the designation. Nobel, also in France at the time went for Ballistite for which he got a patent in 1887; the parallel with the letter B seems to be implied in some terminologies - not sure but everyone was rushing around with the newest invention, after A comes B, then C... the British came up with Cordite around 1889. No matter what was up, there was a lot of copycat marketing going on. No doubt. The other typical explanation is given that the new powder was white in color - blanche for the French, and thus they found the Poudre Blanche PB - now how white was the new powder is left to interpretation, also black powder made blanche smoke, and technical descriptions seem to often discuss the yellowness in relation to quality for those new nitro powders. Yellow would be jaune. (PB? PJ? PB&J? who cares, while the old black powder was used in cooking, the new stuff isn't anymore) I don't find this color coded scheme very conclusive as there had been previous designations of poudre blanche for actually some form of black powder. Furthermore, just as in English the word blank means empty, a 'tir à blanc' is not very impressive when it comes to shooting a raging bull. The best source for this letter B was that it was named in honor of Général Boulanger who introduced it to the military. General B was immensely popular in France among the general population and among the military. His claim to fame achieved when he crushed the activist Commune government in 1871 - this was an all out warfare against communism and its defeat made Boulanger the beloved leader of the defense ministry. He also brought in much improvements to military life and adapted the uniforms for comfortable practical use along with allowing the wearing of beards, massive beards which were in high fashion then just as they were with most our Civil War heroes. Big moustaches were sexy and so was Général Boulanger; in 1889 he went on to run for office himself and won the conservative ticket by almost a two to one margin. Alas, politics then were much like today and his victory was stomped on by the system : he was forced into exile and communism light returned. The letter B had more traction than the C. Popular with soldiers Poudre B was the military version while the other nitro powders were variations on the PB Base for the many uses in Ballistics and tunnel Boring. From here on old nitro powder categories were broken down again into the 1) explosives used in the Poudre de Mine, versions Explosif N and O; then the pyroxylated 2) Poudre de Chasse and 3) Poudre de Tir 2) The Poudre de Chasse were variations along the Poudre B made into the various hunting powders, the first one known as PJ Poudre J. Maybe it is simply because it's I before J, or, in a fling of international admiration, the letter J was hunted from the German for Jagd. Nonetheless, PJ was a designation for B powder added with some bichromate. PM powder was that of B powder added with baryte and delivered in a polished state while the PS version was the same but unpolished (or less polished). And lastly in the category of hunting powders there was PT, just the straight nitro ingredient and the appropriate shape structure. 3) The Poudre de Tir and Poudre à Fusil was the same PT as above with the various shaping and rolling processes to give the powder the desired geometry. With the mass commercialization of Poudre T started in 1899, it seems much was made of its new shape, the glittering little cubes. This of course has an effect on pressure building but it had a powerful market appeal. It could have been interesting to think the T was used for Tubular shaped powder, however the tube geometries of Poudre B only came out around 1952 and are known to the French as TUBAL today. There was also the Poudre EF which was again a PB concoction and meant this time for blank shooting and waving the flag of surrender. What more? Shape wise this new Poudre T was in the shape of a rhombus and for the non-mathematically inclined geeks the shape is more plainly known as a glitzy diamond shaped trapèze. Could it be T for Trapezoid? True? ![](/forums/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) Poudre T was a nitro version as were all the other letter designations. T as in niTro? B as in bitro? M as in mitro? J as in njtro? it could all seem plausible, though scratching for more options, T is a closer match to the molecular definitions that usually involve some tri-nitro- something something. T as in Tri, the same etymology as is TNT. ![](/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) Meanwhile, Nobel and his Ballistite had been edged out by the Poudre B of Vieille for gun use, but in larger canons it was the Ballistite that was making the sales. Nobel had since moved from Paris and established a factory in Olympic Turin of Italy. We'd now have this newfangled Poudre de Turin, I imagine, and a way to catch up on the marketing could have been to invent a Poudre T. I am dwelling deep into the world of industrial espionage it seems. ![](/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) You think science fiction has nothing to do with all of this? Well, remember, I mentioned Jules Verne who was actively writing the most popular James Bond stories. In the book of 1896 called Facing the Flag Jules Verne introduces a wholly new concept: that of the Dr. Eeeevil and his invention of the "Fulgurator" along with secret lairs around the world and including one in New Bern, North Carolina (???). He wants meeelions of dollars from international governments. Far fetched? Its arch-nemesis and hero, Thomas Roch, who invents a powder more powerful than dynamite was based entirely on the real life of ballistics engineer Eugène Turpin. In 1885, real Turpin had created a version of nitro powder to be used in canons, he then sold the invention to the state in 1887 and was subsequently put in jail presumably to save the government the payments. Much public interest was given in the matter and he ended up clear of every charge - meanwhile his T initialed character made it into fiction and into the courts in a bitter copyrights contest with Jules Verne himself. He lost that one in 1897. Clearly when this new diamond shaped glittering Poudre T was introduced in 1899, pop culture of the time was filled with ideas of this new super fulgurant powder. Put Thomas and Turpin all together in a Model T and you find yourself in a tailspin of twisted marketing suppositions. We know how it works, in the fifties, everything was atomic, by the seventies it was all about space age and today everything is in the i-world and e-commerce. So... The T designation in Poudre T might mean all sorts of things. I found nothing definite and my guess is that it was a popular idea and a direct recall to older terms in the then current language referring to powders available in the public sector as Poudre de Traite and Poudre de Tir - why it was not called PC for Poudre de Chasse may have to do that hunters and the less politically correct poachers may have been happy to simply buy cheap and almost tax-free black powder available to farmers for blowing up tree stumps and the occasional wild bugs. And lastly, not to criticize Foreign logic, it seems it would have made more sense to stamp guns with the PB designation more appropriate to the whole nitro family - but if you ask me, proof stamps follow no logic whatever. The random mystery makes it all that much more interesting. Surely, I add nothing new to what most here probably know; I probably even add some errors. I do not know which conclusions are actually accurate - perhaps others here will ask around on other boards they participate in. ![](/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) And now for an epilogue just because I like long winded posts I have a few books on the history of the DuPont Company which I think is simply fascinating. Old Eleuthère Irénée du Pont de Nemours 1771-1834 (Ohhh N for Nitro Nemours) came to the US and turned out to be one of those prototypical American stories. Eleuthère and his father fled France and the scary sound of the head chopping communist machine. France was going trough its revolutionary spasms and people were demanded to relinquish their freedom in exchange for uniform equality. Anyone wealthier than his neighbor was efficiently expropriated and anyone taller than his enemy was guillotined; I also guess having a long long name was bad news. And so, instead of the vibrant and creative society of Medieval and Classical France the French Commune took place; the armies of resentful bureaucrats and insatiable state dependants were now validated. The king and his strict standing on the defense of property rights and individual rights and self defense rights all went poof. Families such as the DuPont were disarmed and kicked out of their wealth. A bit later, the same was happening to Général Boulanger who fled to England and Belgium. So much for freedom cries. It is amazing to consider how far ahead 18th century France was on every other nation, science, culture, economy, population, politics. The latest powder science all came from France and it all blew up almost overnight except for the bits DuPont recreated in the US. By the end of the 19th century it was almost over, knowledge was being sopped up by others and actually the first introduction of nitrocellulose was done by Schönbein, a Swiss, and his explosive kitchen towels. Lavoisier and other giants of science were now long gone as in g-o-n-e. The first nitro tinkering had started already in 1788 with nitro phenol substances, also, bitter tasting picric acid had appeared in 1742. Success was not to remain in French hands. To coincide with the final French revolution of 1968, the last production of Poudre T and others was shut down at the Sevran Livry manufacture, this had been the first ever steam powered powder plant opened in 1870. The place is a ruin to the glory of an environmental preserve since 1982. It is in the US that the DuPont family found freedom to develop its products and compete with many other international manufacturers. Sadly, what DuPont's experiences has also demonstrated is that our government does not know how to always stay out of the way: there is a long and painful history of back and forth interference between the state and DuPont and it all is a reminder that expecting individuals to re-grow their head once the state chops it off is kind of lame -ahem, the solution: cut it off only halfway? Just like with the terrorist threats, we have to be constantly vigilant over our freedom while the enemy only needs to succeed once. Communists won France over with just chopping each head, starting in 1792. Germany and the rest of all continental Europe as in the Holy Roman Empire fell to the same evil starting 1806. Further to the east, Russia did not either survive its revolutions into the darkness of the 20th century - each of those events came with millions of deaths and waves of immigrants to the US fleeing the misery of central planning economics and, mainly, seeking to regain their lost freedom. It is no wonder Général Boulanger was such a hero in France at the time he succeeded, Poudre B was a recipe for freedom. Sadly, the long term failure was that while he removed the political head of suicidal socialism, he did nothing to remove its body made into flesh in the mass of bureaucratic regulatory agencies and their hordes of state dependant employees. The cure is just like with vampires. Stake a pike through the heart and uphold the crucifix of our christian values. The double whammy swipe by President Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II made possible the collapse of the Soviet threat and a rebirth of the Twenty-first century. Let's spread that around. ![](/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) Did I answer anything? I think we all know T is for Tennessee Volunteers. Happy Valentine.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sixbears, I have never seen "nitro" used in combination with "poudre" in French, although "nitro" is certainly used alone. The common French term for smokeless is "poudre vive"--which is marked "PV" on many Belgian guns.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hi L.
No prob. PN is definitely not the abbreviation for poudre nitro.
As a caution, I've read about a bunch of recent and old designations of poudre vive pertaining to black powder - just very fine and rapid burning black powder. The opposite is poudre lente obviously. But, mostly, like you say poudre vive is meant to mean nitro - in Belgium all the time, in France much less, and Switzerland, like, never. Actually I think the mention of poudre without qualifying it of being a black powder means anything modern and smokeless and powerful.
Indeed it is the Belgians who have the French fries which are nowhere to be found in France. Nothing is simple while the Québécois make the unambiguous use of poudre nitro. Smarter.
And more,
L. you're absolutely right it is canon de sûreté (and don't I love those useless accents - I add them in directly with the ASCII code and numeric keypad - or copy and paste from a Google search - easy). There was also some mentions of poudre de sûreté in places I looked, however I don't really know what it means beyond a marketing gimmick. The surlie stuff only ever pertained to twist and Damascus - which is wholly not applicable with the gun in this post.
Thanks all for the learning opportunities.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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There's no problem finding "frites" in France, although the French--who tell Belgian jokes like we often tell Polish jokes in this country--make fun of the Belgians because they eat them so often.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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French powders S, J, and M are all various forms of semi-smokeless powder, that do not measure the same (equivalent) for proof, or cartridge loadings. They differ in this respect with black powder, as well. Powder T is a true, progressive, smokeless powder, and came into use for French proof in 1900. You can still specify proof with a powder other than smokeless T in France. That said, you can still get a 24, or 32 gauge there, as well. Neither event is to be considered common, or, normal. Best, Ted
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Ted,
Can you hunt with a 24ga or 32ga in France? I know in Belgium you can not.
Pete
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Haven't done any hunting there, Pete. I saw used, 24 gauge guns advertised for sale while in France, and raw 24 gauge barrel blanks and actions at Bruchet, assumed one could hunt there with them, but can't answer your question. I have no intention of hunting with either gauge here, but, that's a different thing entirely. Best, Ted
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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......... you're absolutely right it is canon de sûreté (and don't I love those useless accents - ... Hey, c’mon, they’re not useless: they are a royal PITA and are important, as certain rules of grammar must be followed. The upside down V is the circumflex (circonflexe) and shows that there was a redundant "S" - e.g. hôtel once was “hostel” which les anglophones still use. Interesting posts on powder, must make time to read content. Thanks K.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Thanks for the effort PeteM. But for me, it seems the deeper one digs into the French powder types, the more confusing it is. There were blasting powders: Forte, Lente & Ordinaire. There was the friction sensitive cocoa, which was used up until the Spanish-American War and was manufactured in several different countries. Earlier there was pulverin, meal powder, as well as Poudre N, Poudre noire, Poudre blanche, Poudre Boulanger(Poudre B???), Poudre BN(metallic nitrates), Poudre BAm(Amyl Alcohol), Poudre Brugere, Poudre Bf(fusil=rifle), etc. Some insight might be found in publications of "Memoria des Poudres".
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Pretty much standard since 1900 is powder T. One can dig into French powders, but, it will involve a lot of effort for not much benefit, save history. Best, Ted
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