S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,931
Posts550,843
Members14,460
|
Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,527 Likes: 354
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,527 Likes: 354 |
Here you go Destry 1869 Price List I believe Parker sourced their Decarbonized barrels from Remington From Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880. U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office The earliest use of decarbonized steel or gun-barrels is generally credited to the Remingtons, who made steel barrels for North & Savage, of Middletown, Connecticut, and for the Ames Manufacturing company, of Chicopee, Massachusetts, as early as 1846. It is also stated that some time about 1848 Thomas Warner, a the Whitneyville works, incurred so much loss in the skelp-welding of iron barrels that he voluntarily substituted steel drilled barrels in his contract, making them of decarbonized steel, which was believed by him to be a a novel expedient. The use of soft cast-steel was begun at Harper's Ferry about 1849. After 1873, all small-arms barrels turned out at the national armory at Springfield were made of decarbonized steel (a barrel of which will endure twice as heavy a charge as a wrought-iron barrel), Bessemer steel being used until 1878, and afterward Siemens-Martin steel. An E. Remington & Sons 1854 broadsheet listed the following MATCHED BARRELS FOR DOUBLE GUNS: Plain Iron------------$4.50 Stubs twisted plain---$8.00 Stubs twisted fine---$10.00 Cast steel------------$8.00 Cast steel, solid or drilled from single bar-----$15.00 "Cast steel" usually refers to the Huntsman hot-rolled crucible steel process of 1742 used to make farm implements. A sheet is folded over a mandrel and the long edge hammer welded to form a barrel. A more modern use refers to the Bessemer process of 1856 for converting pig iron to "Decarbonized Steel" or "Bessemer process homogenous wrought iron".
Last edited by revdocdrew; 02/13/09 05:38 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,232
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,232 |
I've heard Ed M. say he thought they were leftover musket tubes from the Parker Snow musket production run. I can't remember where he said he got that information but I've heard him say it more than once.
DLH
Out there at the crossroads molding the devil's bullets. - Tom Waits
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133 |
Sounds like they're fairly stout, if they'll take twice the pressure of a wrought-iron barrel. But the advice to err on the safe side is always wise when we're talking about guns with much age on them.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
From Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880. U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office The earliest use of decarbonized steel or gun-barrels is generally credited to the Remingtons, who made steel barrels for North & Savage, of Middletown, Connecticut, and for the Ames Manufacturing company, of Chicopee, Massachusetts, as early as 1846. It is also stated that some time about 1848 Thomas Warner, a the Whitneyville works, incurred so much loss in the skelp-welding of iron barrels that he voluntarily substituted steel drilled barrels in his contract, making them of decarbonized steel, which was believed by him to be a a novel expedient. The use of soft cast-steel was begun at Harper's Ferry about 1849. After 1873, all small-arms barrels turned out at the national armory at Springfield were made of decarbonized steel (a barrel of which will endure twice as heavy a charge as a wrought-iron barrel), Bessemer steel being used until 1878, and afterward Siemens-Martin steel. What is missing is the next sentence, which I did not post at the time: The loss on barrels welded from the skelp sometimes ranged as high as from 10 per cent to upward of 20 per cent on account of imperfections in the wrought iron and in welding. The loss on drilled and rolled steel barrels is only a fraction of 1 percent, and in some large contracts has been within one-tenth of 1 percent.
In proving the (pistol) barrels ... Although only a small percentage (for decarbonized steel barrels about one-sixth of 1 percent) is burst in the proving...
So the advantage of decarbonized steel was the lack of imperfections. Back in 2005 there was a long discussion about the strength of various steels. Geno provided these figures from a 1905 work by Prof Buturlin. Steel Type Max (lbs/sq in) Damascus -------------- 31,291 to 52,626 Typical 1905 Steel --- 64,000 Winchester Steel ----- 39,400 Winchester Nickel --- 88,600 Krupp Special --------- 85,340 Krupp 5 M ------------- 92,450 Bohler Antinit ------ 116,630 Pete
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113 |
I saved this from a long time ago --
Question: Remington Model 1889 Hammer Gun -- "Decarbonized Steel Barrels" -- The Remington Catalogues which I have (1902, 1903-4, 1904-5 and 1906) list the Model 1889 hammer doubles in Grade 1 as having "Decarbonized steel barrels." What does this mean? How do "Decarbonized steel barrels" differ from the "Remington Steel" or "Ordinance Steel" of the hammerless Models 1894 and 1900? Oscar? Anyone?
Oscar’s Answer -- Prior to the late 19th century, steel meant only high carbon steel that could be hardened and tempered to make the many useful things such as springs and other items subject to high wear that only could be made with this material. Other ferrous metals were all lumped into the iron category. This included cast iron with a very high carbon content which was extremely brittle and wrought or malleable iron which was cast or pig iron that had essentially all of the carbon burned out of it and was very soft and easily worked. I believe that this was also called gun or gun-barrel iron because it was used to make many gun barrels and other gun parts. This is what we call today low or very low carbon steel. I believe that decarbonized steel is simply this low carbon content wrought iron and the name decarbonized steel was more of a marketing gimmick to give the impression of high strength rather than a realistic description of metallurgical properties. Parker Bros. also used barrels marked as Decarbonized Steel for a while on some of their lowest grade hammer doubles. I have seen this nomenclature used on European guns as well--mainly lower priced ones. I would doubt that the barrels were as strong as the Damascus barrels made at that time.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
1898 letter to the editor: A writer in Recreation claimed that blued barrels, such as used on some of the cheaper American guns, are as strong as the imported twist barrels. My observations teach me this is a mistake. Anyone who is familiar with gun making knows the cheap blue barrels are all made from a good grade of rolled iron, which is bored at the factories where used. The grain of the metal must necessarily run lengthwise, and consequently will not stand the bursting strain which the same metal would stand if the grain ran in a spiral course. Besides, the twist barrels are made of the best Norway iron and steel, welded together in spiral form.
Again, the writer referred to says twist barrels are no longer made. This is a mistake. Alt barrel makers make them, although the old stub-and-twist, which were made of old horseshoe nails, are no longer made. I have it from so good an authority as Mr. Josette, of Pagnoul & Josette, the barrel makers of Liege, Belgium, that the twist or Damascus barrel will stand a much greater strain than the decarbonized steel (iron) barrel.
Anyone who frequents the Northwestern duck fields will see that many more cheap blue barrels than twist are burst with the heavy loads used for ducks. I pin my faith to an Ithaca twist duck gun, and feel safe with 4 drams of Dupont's smokeless. Northwest, St. Paul, Minn. Dave, I would agree with what you posted. I think decarbonized was simply a way of saying Bessemer, as he used the term in his patent. http://www.google.com/patents?id=Q4FUAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=bessemerPete
Last edited by PeteM; 02/15/09 09:08 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 37
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 37 |
My own mini proof house
Just for comparative value, in the past I have obtained the actual measured tensile strength of a bunch of guns, then, with a few sectional measurements I did compute the supposed internal pressure at which the barrel explodes under hoop stress - from that value we then derate the numbers by whatever safety value we need.
So, here is what an old Mannesmann special steel double barrel assembled in Belgium gave me.
measured hardness of about 140 HB scale steel tensile strength converted from measurement: 70000 PSI unsafe blowup pressure at about one inch beyond the chamber: 21000 PSI derated by a 50% safety factor (as an example): 10500 PSI
unsafe blowup pressure at the rim: 34000 PSI unsafe blowup pressure halfway down the barrel: 12000 PSI unsafe blowup pressure before choke area: 11000 PSI
The 70000 PSI tensile strength is very soft as we could imagine with something of a decarbonized steel. The evidence of the softness on this gun is also visible in the deep stamps of the proof marks and many nicks. It is not a heavy gun at all either.
I found this interesting.
Be safe.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
SixBears; Your figures are interesting & appear to be correct. I would however caution on one point. The 70K is as you stated tensile, or as sometimes referenced ultimate, thus the bursting point. The point which is really of most importance for a shotgun bbl is the yield or elastic limit. This is the point at which when the pressure falls away the bbl retains a swell/bulge rather than return to its original shape. This would most likely be in the 40-45K range for the quoted steel having a Brinell Hardness of only 140. I have data from Machinery's Handbook for a 1035 steel in soft condition @ BH 170 showing ultimate of 83K & yield of 51K. Thus the actual usable pressure will be less than indicated lest the bbl be bulged.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 211
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 211 |
Guys,
I just got an e-mail from Alex Papp from RST about their 10 ga shells. He lists the pressures as 5500 psi for 1-1/8 oz lead, 6500 psi for 1-1/4 lead and 7300 psi for 1-1/4 oz Nice Shot.
Jack K
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 37
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 37 |
Yeah, it's a bummer when you can't hold the bulge in and it blows up a head on the shooter - and it all happens so fast.
You're very right 2-piper to mention the yield strength as the first pressure to be worried about inside a barrel. For the gun's sake.
Yield strength being that strength at which the steel first deforms with permanent damage, it is always below the maximum tensile strength where, of course, things break because we pulled too hard on them. To give ballpark figures on what yield strength is, simply consider that for high strength steel, yield occurs at about 90% of the maximum burst pressure. For medium steel, the yield occurs at 80% already and for really soft steel, the permanent bulging will start readily at only 60% of the maximum-break-everything pressure.
Most guns fall in the lower-medium 80% bracket, but it depends. Some modern guns are made of high strength steel and the guns discussed in this topic fall in the low range. Damascus does not fall far below the value for my special Mannesmann.
So in my example, we had
unsafe blowup pressure at about one inch beyond the chamber: 21000 PSI
unsafe pressure at which bulging deformations are permanent at 60% since this is a low strength steel barrel to begin with: 12600 PSI
derated to a 50% safety factor which would mean we are just seemingly 10% away from damage - really thin margin for loading errors: 10500 PSI
derated to a 40% safety factor leaving a breathing room of 20% now: 8400 PSI
derated to a 30% safety factor leaving a breathing room of 30%, this is 1 to 2 margin, now: 6300 PSI
The pressure to aim for depends on the risk taking comfort of the operator.. Good call.
|
|
|
|
|