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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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A few times the discussion of a master's project gun has come up over the years. I really do think it is topic worth discussing. Here is brief period account of the gun making school at Liege. This was a time when the guilds were changing, adapting to the ever increasing use of high volume production methods. Bulletin By United States Bureau of Education Published by U.S. G.P.O., 1914http://books.google.com/books?id=vZ8VAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA59&dq=liege+school+gun+making#PPA59,M1GUNMAKERS' SCHOOL,
Liege, Belgium.
The Gunmakers' School represents an organization which was originally established by manufacturers, but is now administered by a committee of that body in conjunction with city officials. Its purpose is to make fully rounded-out mechanics specialized in the gunmakers' trade. This is due to the locality being a large gun- making center, the Fabrique Nationale or National Factory for Gunmaking being located here.
The monetary provision consists of 78,000 francs annually and is provided from private donations, city, Province, and State, about one-fourth each.
Instruction is somewhat specialized, depending on the part of the gunmaking that the apprentices desire to follow. When the pupils graduate they are classed as finished workmen, and are so recognized by the manufacturers and the labor organizations. A great deal of this standing, however, depends upon the actual ability of the individual. The relation of the school to tradespeople, employers, and citizens is generally most excellent, all being interested in its development as a municipal institution.
The course of instruction covers 6 1/2 hours a day in winter, 7 hours in summer, 6 days a week, 11 months a year, during a period of 3 years, with the privilege of a post-graduate course of 1 year for class proficiency. Vacation is held during the month of July.
The academic studies consist of arithmetic, algebra, geometry, drafting.
About 10 to 12 hours per week are devoted to these studies.
An evening course consisting entirely of related academic training includes the study of industrial history of firearms, powders and their composition, manufacture of steel and iron, mathematics, and other related subjects.
This course is given 1 1/2 hours a night, 3 nights a week, 11 weeks a year, during a period of 3 years. There are no other departments of instruction.
There are about 250 apprentices in attendance during the day; the evening attendance is comparatively small.
A tuition fee is charged in this school for the entire period, but is refunded upon graduation.
The entrance requirements are that students be 13 years of age, and have finished 6 years of elementary school training. The product of the shops is both for practice and for sale. Some of the parts are sold to the factory, the selling price being fixed by the purchasers, 25 per cent of the sales going to the apprentices. The entire amount, however, is practically negligible in its application to the maintenance of the department.
The equipment in both machines and hand tools is of a very simple nature, and some apparatus as well as some processes are entirely inadequate and obsolete, judged by American standards of factory production.
The policy of the school is under the guidance of an advisory board composed of manufacturers, labor men, and representatives of the city, Province, and State.
A visitation to the large factories where the boys find employment showed that the shop organization is of such a specialized nature that it is impossible for a boy to learn a trade in actual employment. In some cases work is let out to home centers, while a very significant condition is that women work at a wage of 2 to 3 francs a day as machinists operating milling machines and similar equipment. What is not addressed in this source is, "What did it take to move from apprentice to journeyman to master?" "How did this change from country to country?" "Did this change over time?" Pete
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Pete,
I don't think the gun industry then was any different from any type of skilled workmen going from apprentice to journeyman and then to master/machinist/tool and die maker,etc.
The stages and training would be the same. You found a job starting at the bottom., maybe sweepig floors, cleaning machinery, etc. If you took an interest and asked the boss that you would like to apprentice in a field, then you would go through that process in the learning stages until you were qualified to go higher, and so on.
In the gun making industry,usually the apprentice and journeyman worked on the lower graded guns, while the masters worked on the fine grades and all the details that went into it.
Your skill determined how long to reach your rank and wages.
David
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Can only speak for the Machinist trade, but I completed a certified apprenticeship which consisted of 4 yrs @ (2,000 hrs/yr shop time + 4 yrs @ 160hrs/yr classroom time. After succesful completion we were then issued a Journeman's card by the Dept of Labor. Unfortunately the shops I was in advancement to a Master as often as not involved more "Politics" than abilities. I sincerely hope it was not that way in the gunmakers trade.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I'm a bit suspicious of the "Master's Project Gun" idea. Perhaps I'm wrong, but as I understand it this gun was made by an individual at the end of the gun making apprenticeship program.
Friends of mine went through apprenticeship programs with the big, prestigious London makers. At the end of their programs they had mastered a very focused part of the gun making process - stock making, bbl making, actioning, finishing, etc.
Once they had mastered their skill they practiced it and earned a living.
Perhaps the Belgain/European trade was/is different, but I doubt it. This line from the quote above seems to say that it isn't "Instruction is somewhat specialized, depending on the part of the gunmaking that the apprentices desire to follow."
OWD
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Liege, Belgium.
Isn't this the place where all the JABC's came from ?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Here's my synopsis of the German version: The early guilds were trade associations and akin to the trade unions. It all began in the home with a father/master-gunsmith – son/apprentice relationship that also included non-family members who were taken into the fold, lived under the same roof as well as put their feet under the dinner table and was treated as a family member. Lads began the apprentice program around 12 to 14 years of age and paid a fee at each interval. After the 3 year apprentice time, Lehrling( http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG ) , and passing the Geselle( http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG ) ) Journeyman exam/test and making an example of a weapon displaying his capability, he was elevated to the rank of Geselle/Journeyman and his Geselle sheep’s skin was called a Lehrbrief( http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Lehrbrief.html ), which not only described his abilities but also included directions for being a success in life as well as how to conduct oneself. The apprentice program was an attempt at a well rounded education, probably a more practical version than the one a University attempts to press upon you, with an a concentration in social conduct/matters and possibly an emphasis in religion. As a Geselle, he now began his 7 year walkabout where he wandered from master-gunsmith to master-gunsmith learning the subtleties of his trade. I’m just reading this in, but in 7 years one should be able to visit most cities in German and here the Geselle could learn the intricacies of each gunmaker. This is how the transfer of technology was achieved and the knowledge of each individual master was propagated thru the Geselle, which could reach master status with an example of his masterpiece, a statute amount of funds and pay for the spread/banquet for the guild. This probably the incorrect origin of a "Guild Gun". But Journeymen on their travels could stay at the local Herberge - gunmaker's verions of http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG , an inn where if there wasn't any work he would be given some funds and direction to a contractor in another town that did have work. Guilds were an intergral part of society. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 04/04/09 10:37 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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One thing is certain: Defining any "no name" "guild gun" as someone's apprenticeship project is way off the mark. I'd define a guild gun as any gun made entirely by outworkers, each applying their own specialty (stocker, barrelmaker, actioner, etc) to an end product, as opposed to a gun made entirely (or mostly) under one roof, by someone like Sauer or Francotte in Europe, or Scott or Greener in Birmingham. Other than guns from makers like Scott and Greener, the fact is that many Birmingham guns bearing a "maker's name" were in fact made by outworkers, just as were the European guns we refer to as "guild guns". The only difference is that, in many cases, the European guild guns weren't marked with a maker's name; rather, with either no name at all or with the name of the shop/dealer for whom they were made.
It's not that there may not have been "apprenticeship" project guns in Europe; rather, that there would never have been enough of them to account for all the no-name European guns we see even in this country--not to mention the ones that never left Europe.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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One thing I failed to include and could account for the "trade guns" or be a stretch for an answer is that the Geselle stayed under the roof of the Master until either the Geselle married or climbed the proverbial gunsmith ladder. Not all Geselle continued the climb and the Journeymen group increased in size but the number of the Masters either stayed the same or declined. And some of the Wars could have accounted for Master losses. So there became a contingent of Geselle who looked out for their own interests. So if haven't received your Lehrbrief and weren't a Master would you put your name on a weapon? Is it akin to practicing without a license? Did you have to be a Master in order to apply your name, other than firearms merchant? Pure conjecture for now.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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While the guild system never became firmly established in the US, there is evidence that in the 1700's and early 1800's a gunsmith's apprentice was usually an indentured servant. This practice stopped as debtor's prisons were abolished circa 1833. http://myvesta.org/history/history_debtorprison.htmlLater there does not appear to be an apprenticeship program. Journeyman were highly mobile. In many cases the journeyman of the European guilds was replaced by factory workers. Most seemed to own little real property. Often they are found living in rooming houses with their place of residence changing from year to year even if their place of employment stayed the same. The Master class would have been the named owner, eg Lefever. Often these master's were property owners. They acquired financing, were responsible for marketing, design, etc. This still did not result in total stability as we see many of these firms moving. Pete
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