doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Questions for the German gun experts

Don't get caught up in the semantics of dukedom, kingdom and the like. Many of Valentin Christoph Schillings as well as Erdmann and Reinhold Schlegelmilch's(porcelain) examples have "Suhl Prussia".

Info on Suhl - "In 1718 the territory was owned by “Kursachsen”. Mining and the trade with arms declined initially. In exchange the “Barchenweberei” (weaving) and the adornment of weapons developed. Precious pieces of this artistry from Suhl master craftsmen, for example Stockmar can nowadays be seen in the museum “Grünes Gewölbe” in Dresden. Therefore the production of arms in Suhl also caused the town to prosper. 1751 is the year when “Sauer & Sohn” was founded. This was the first German factory of arms and after the Belgium “Lüttich” the second in Europe. Between 1756 and 1760 Suhl’s gunsmiths sold 25,000 rifles to Prussia. Because of this standing the town as well as the whole county of Henneberg joined the kingdom of Prussia." - http://suhltrifft.de/content/view/16/639/lang,en/

I think Prussia existed from 1701 to 1918 and I've seen reference of Suhl being in "Prussian Saxony".

Are you reading the initials left to right or right to left? Are there any period beside the initials to tell which way they were stamped? Usually facing the tubes with the flats to the right the initials are read left to right. Also there looks to be another set of letter up toward the Lindner type forend lug on the right tube.

A sort of side note on air guns of Bergmann of Eisenwerke Gaggenau possibly made by C.G. Haenel or V.C. Schilling is that airrifles and possibly other longarm had a mark of "EG" over "Crossed Pistols".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

John, it has the hook commonly used on the Lindner sourced guns. Now, what all of that means, I am not sure.

John E.:

Looking at the pic closer it appears that the stands of the letter "H" look to be toward the rib as does the "K" ahead of the "HS". So on this example I would guess one would view the initials from the left side and read them left to right which would be "HS". But herein lies the issue: right off I don't know of a Schilling of the period with the exception of Ernst Hermann Schilling(1871-1928) of Suhl. I don't see what I think to be a Schilling forge mark and the tubes may have been sourced from Belgium. To compound the issue, other options would have been H. Schelgelmich and if the Schelgelmilch and Schilling folk were contractor to one another, we may not be able to untangle the web of Ss. But as I posted, during this time Valentin Christoph Schilling was considered a private arsenal, or production center, for military arms and may have sourced the longarm.


In the event the initials are "SH", the only match I can think of his Stephan Heym, which I think commenced in 1850.


Curious too is the ":" after "Chr:". I've looked at this V.C. Schilling example many times but the condition looks to be poor: http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/descriptiondisplay.html?shotguncarthammerlessschillingsuhlGmG . The "bump" on the forend may be attributed to Schilling.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That looks like a corker of an old gun...in awesome condition, hardly used....If your up for shooting Damascus...& have it looked at by a good Smith that knows his stuff...why hang it on wall?
with nice mild 7/8 or 1oz loads why wouldn't she be good for a nother good few years.
I think it's grand,..... beautiful actually
good luck with it man
Franc
Care to tell us the rough price????

Raimey,
I am not exactly sure it is a "K" but it could very well be. Here are a couple close up pictures. The "H" is towards the breech.

Thanks again,
John

Hello Franc,
Thank you for the compliments. I will be shooting her with some mild black powder loads on occasion. But, I will be treating her with all due respect.

If any of you gentlemen would be so kind as to give me an estimate on its value (mainly for insurance purposes), I will be more than happy to tell you how much I paid.

Best Wishes, John

I haven't found any pics but a little more info on Valentin Christoph Schilling and his serialization. At International Exhibits he won the following awards for his weapons, military & sporting:
Berlin 1844 - Bronz
Paris - 1855 - Silver
London - 1862 - won a medal?
It seems that he had different serialization for military and sporting or the military arms were different lots under the contracts. Schilling #10596(1855-1862) was a double rifle with Damask Turk tubes. Schilling #11001, circa 1860, was a percussion "rifle-gun" with Damask Leclerc Tubes. Schilling #11004, circa 1860, was a cased Lefaucheux action double and I would assume pin-fire. So anyone, say PeteM, want to guess he sourced his pattern welded tubes from Belgium???

Great close-up pics on the letters. The image of the "K", "VCS", whatever is so close I'm going to have to stare at it awhile.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

yeh, i give them a medal too. this is about as good as ole' mid-grade hammer gun is likely to get.

JohnF
Sorry if you thought me rude about asking the price.
Always curious...I just hoped you did well on such a handsome gun.
I really don't know much about those Prussian/German Guns.
But the condition looks awesome.
I wouldn't be suprised to see it at as high as 4000, perhaps more on some website, but I could be off either way....it looks a fine gun to me though,

cheers
franc

I've found a reference in 1837 to a Heinrich Schilling that was either in partnership with Fredrich Klett on some type of drop hammer or both had a similar piece of machinery. In the 1860s, I also found a reference to a weapons maker in Suhl by the name of Heinrich Chr. Schilling but trying to stumble thru that old German is akin to trying to read a hand penned, rain soaked, letter in the rain. But this Heinrich Schilling cat could be our "H.S.". There had to be a couple of generations of Schilling seeing V.Chr. began in 1816 and I'd guess him to have approx. 20 years. So say he made it to 60 years, that would have him passing the reins in the mid 1850s or early 1860s.

Some sources give in the mid to late 1870s that V.Chr. Schilling was purely focusing on military arms.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse