doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com ned help identifying 2 guns

Otto Seelig of Wiesbaden was a gunmaker to the Danish Royal House, and it may be here that he paid his tribute or fee for the use of the title. Otto Selisch lived in the same town of Wiesbaden and I would put a good bit of stock in the fact that they worked together more than in competition as Otto Selisch’s name is found on double rifles of the Danish Royal Family. Some sources give Otto Selisch as the source of the Muzzelverschluss(Clam Shell) actions, which was developed in the mid to late 1890s. He made the actions and the Berlin contingent, with the possible exception of Heinrich Barella, Otto Bock, Bemesu(small gunsmith or firearms merchant), Carl Stiegele, W. Förster, Bayer Hofgewehrfabrik, Munchen, etc., sourced the Muzzelverschluss components from him.

Robert Schüler also made longarms on the Clam Shell action in the early 1900s. For now I don’t know when he actually began which deals me some misery.

Greifelt included a Muzzelverschluss in their catalogue and possibly could be a source. And their was of course a Schlegelmilch connection: Greifelt & Schlegelmich frim.

But for now I think the following links & folks were responsible:
Friedrich Ernst Ferdinand Merkel(1821-1901) – engraver
Son Bernhard Emil Merkel(1874-1954) – Guns marked “B.Merkel-Suhl”
Found his own separate business circa 1900 and his son Fritz(1906-1976) followed in his footsteps
Ernst August Merkel(1853-1912)
Louis Franz Ferdinand Merkel(1866-1904)
Heinrich Barella, Genschow, Kettner, Kind & Mauser purchased components from Bernhard Merkel sourcing Sauer as a forge and machine shop. Now I have not seen a Sauer Muzzelverschluss to my recollection. This is a prime example of how lord/top gunmakers would source Suhl and surrounding areas for the best/top craftsmen for their end product while the Hof title holders had the connections and probably finished the arms. Suhl had it all but the connections: components, craftsmen, proofhouse, etc.

I still haven’t found all of my Otto Seelig info but when I see his name I think of the Muzzelverschluss. I think the action fell out of favor by the end of WWI, when the request for actions seemed to taper off but ALFA, GECO, Kind, etc. offered it as an option for an additional 75RM.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

thank you, please let me know if you find more. any thoughts on a value for this gun?

thank you,
Scott

I don't know how much weight can be associated with Otto Seelig, lord/top gunmaker or how much or if any value is added but I've seen the Tell examples range from $950 to about $1700 depending on the calibre. If you do a chamber cast and land up with 0.32 Winchester, with the Hof stamp you just might have an interesting combination.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

would that be 32-40 Wincester? thanks, Scott

No, I think .32 WCF is 32-20. The early Hahnlose Selbstspanerbuchse / Tells were available in 22WCF(model Tellbuchse III) and 32 WCF(model Tellbuchse IV). Where is the takedown lever and what type safety does it have, wing???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

this is the forend latch, i'll take a photo of the safety.

it does appear to be 32 cal. photos added. thank you scott

Without a take-down lever, it may not be a true Tellbuschse, but I usually only refer to a tip-down single of the early variety as a Tell. It would then possibly be a Modell 36 or 37 Pirschbuchsen or Kipplaufbuchsen(tip down barrel). This could be a mute point and they both are one in the same. Is there a serial number, say 120000, on the left side of the barrel lug or on the frame. The screw between the triggers is the set screw for the German stecher or set trigger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

the serial number 2764 is stamped in several places, i dont see other numbers in those area. thank you, Scott

My guess as to the likely cartridges it could be include 8,15x46R, 8x58R Sauer or 8x57R/360. With the 172,28 (.300") mark I think it's unlikely to be a .32 WCF (.32-20) because the .32-20 bullet diameter is a bit small for that in the .312" range.

Scott, If you could post back with the diameter of the rim recess and chamber mouth we could probably narrow it down quite a bit. Also, is the chamber straight or necked?