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On page 344 here, (Gunsmithing by Roy F. Dunlap - 1963) http://books.google.com/books?id=7Ab12fH...shotgun&lr= , are some published tolerance for German chambers followed by 65mm cartridge info. Previous pages have some British info regarding 65mm/2 1/2" actually being 2 9/6ths inch.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

My Husqvarna Model 610 (hammerless) in 12 gauage is from 1948(?) and is stamped 12 - 18.5 which I think (?) indicates 2-3/4" chambers. It appears to me to be a "Sauer-like" action with swedish steel barels.

It chambers and fires 2-3/4" standard American ammo, with no problems.

JERRY

18.5 would be the bore diameter. 18.5 divided by 254=.728. American standard is .729, most are in the 720-30 range.

Checked hull lengths on once-fired Fiocchi 16X65 loads I bought in 1980s and they are 64,5 mm. Venezuelian and Rio 16X67 mm loads have 67 mm hulls. Loaded-in-England "12X65" bismuth loads really have 67 mm hulls. Have no once-fired hulls from other "16X65" or "12X65" ammo I have (Kent TM mostly). Unfortunately, have no remaining German or Canadian Imperial 16 gauge ammo hulls or boxes.

As stated in previous post, ALL my old Swedish hammer doubles have actual, measured chambers of 65 mm and German ones actual 67 mm chambers. While my decades-long experience has consistantly found these chamber lengths, my "handful" of guns is hardly a statistically valid sample.

Tobais,

I could not find your artikel about 65 & 67 mm chambers on search of Vapendepot.se. Perhaps it is sold out.

I do agree with you that British and American usage of 2 1/2 inch chamber or hull length sould not be taken as actual measurement -- this is point I have made for past few decades.

Raimey,

I could not get google-book you reference to display.

Regards,
Niklas

There has never been any law regulating thsi in sweden so normally chamberlength is left out on older HVA.

For German laws you can see http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany.html where I have tried to collect what is known about German proofmarks. And believe me there is a lot of information lost regarding this from Suhl proofhouse.

Buit as I wrote: it's not all about the cahmber length (that is from barrelplane to cone, there is a questions about diameter in the chamber as well. If you measure on to the cone - you be home free you think - wrong becuase of the more narrow mouth of the chamber due to overwad cartridges and opening resistance.

You should measure with the correct size of the chamber mouth, if you then don't reach the cone that is not important since you should not fire a cartridge in a to narrow chamber..... Many meassure the chamberlength with less than minimum diameter, which is wrong.



This is the case with allmost all makers.....

The historical reasons for this is that people reloaded shells in those days, each time the cartridge was fired and reloaded the shell was lengthend somewhat, so a shell that started of as a 65mm shell could end up 67 or 68mm long. So most makers did not stick to 65mm - they used 67 or 68mm to be sure. If the buyer didnt specify a shorter chamber. That extra space is what the manufacturer have used when they left the overwad and had to cut the available volume in the shell for the folding.



Skicka ett mail till Tobias@shotguns.se så kommer den som en PDF...

Best regards
Tobias

Tobias,

I am quite aware of many European chambers being smaller in diameter near forcing cone, sometimes leading to too short measurement if USA-made chamber gauges are used. In fact, my Swedish and German hammer doubles with original chambers are this way. IF I beleived measurements with USA-made chamber gauges, I would quite erroniously claim these chambers were only about 50 mm!!! Now and then I get message from someone that thinks they have Swedish shotgun with such short chambers!! Because of this, I made chamber gauges to exactly fit dimensions of these chambers. To repeat, measurements of 65 mm on my Swedish hammer doubles is accurate, as is 67 mm on my German ones.

As noted in previous post, with European and South American ammos I have, 1980s Itallian, marked 16X65, and recent Venezuelian and Spanish 16X67 marked ammo does actually have, respectively, 65 or 67 mm hulls. I will continue to be learly of English ammos as regards hull length.

Snart skicker jag ett mail till Tobais@shotguns.se.

Hej då och tack för bra discussion,
Niklas

What is to say the greener crossbolt models wont handle a steady diet of 3 dram trap loads??
Even the Lefacheaux models seem stout enough,tho alittle light,[not counting the damask guns],
Loosened ribs in the long run??

yobyllib,

I have shot lots of handloads and lower pressure factory loads (known to be lower pressure from independent pressure testing) that gave measured velocities of about 1250 fps with 1,0 to 1 1/8 oz of shot in my Lefacheax M 15 12X65 and various toplever, sometimes crossbolt guns (made 1890 to 1921), mostly for hunting, with maybe max of 70-90 shots per year/per gun. Mostly, 1,0 oz 1.300 fps loads were used -- that is, loads they were designed for. These loads gave chamber pressures or 9.500 to 10.500 psi at 70-80F and were used at 60F to well below freezing. The guns all have 65 mm chambers and hulls were 65 or 67 mm long. Weights are from 6,2 to somewhat over 7,0 lbs. After years of this, I see no indications of guns getting off face. I never fired USA factory 3 dram loads in any of these guns, in part because of expected higher chamber pressures and known 70 mm hulls.

For busting claybirds, we use 7/8 or 3/4 oz loads at 1100-1250 fps and chamber pressures below about 9.500 psi.

I would expect steady use of SAAMI spec, USA-made shotshells to slowly put at least some older Husqvarna doubles off face because of higher chamber pressure specs for SAAMI than for CIP and similar specs (for which these guns were designed -- that is, somewhat lower average service pressures). All my guns have solid wood in stock around sidelocks. What case is for post WW2, internal hammer, A&D-type Husqvarna doubles (310s etc.), someone else will have to tell us.

Niklas

12 is gauge and 18,5 is the diameter of the barell 9" from the chamber.

All HVA above number 165700 have 70mm or 2 3/4" chambers.

It is not like Sauer actions at all, since HVA did stuck to the original A-D patent from 1875 in a much higher grade than the germans did. So it is much more like a brittish made SbS, but of a much lower quality than a german or brittish made gun. Especially those made after the second world war.

/T

Serial number on my Husqvarna Model 610 hammerless 12 gauge SxS is 209XXX. I think that is about 1948?

The action screws on both sides have set screws that I have only seen on Sauer SxS's of the same period. But, who knows where the action might have originated?

JERRY