doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com German Drilling...gold inlaid

Fellas,

I was just offered a gorgeous German drilling..16x16x???. Heavy relief engraving, gold inlay on frame & bbl wedges, carved wood. The name/address on top rib in gold is : H.LEUE HOFBUCHSENMACHER, BERLIN. Have any of you drilling fans heard of H. Leue. If anyone is interested in seeing it I have pix. Thanks, Tom tjw@foxriversporting.com

Tom, That "???" has a lot of bearing on its utility. With the Berlin address, it is almost certainly a pre-war gun (there is likely a three number date code on the flats). That means the rifle is almost certainly metric. If an 8x57R, 9.3x72R, or 7x57R, then no problem, but the calibers can start to get fairly exotic from there. Does it have a scope or at least claw bases? Most of the "liberated" guns game back without scopes. The glass was usually kept in a leather carrier which was missed when the home was searched or was kept by the owner/family when the gun was turned in.

Joe,

Thanks for the reply. No scope or bases. Were these guns typically marked for the rifle caliber? It is marked 16 on the bbl flats, but I dont recall seeing a clue for the rifle. I'll look for three numbers.

I suspected it was pre-war...had that look. I failed to mention the horn buttplate & trigger guard as I guess those are typical. Set trigger. I believe the bbls were approx 26".

tjw

I looked again and there are 2 "16" in circles and 2 "16/1" below them on the flats.

The bottom of frame is engraved: SYSTEM HEYM 60215 D.R. PATENT all arranged in a football type shape.

Post some pictures if you can.Sounds like it will need a chamber cast and slug the barrel to determine caliber.
Here is a Buschsenmacher Shotgun

http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12517

Buschenmacher is the German word for gunmaker, and a Hofbuschenmacher is a semi-official title indicating approval from the city, or Hof, in which the gunmaker worked. I wish I could add more about H.Leue himself, but all I know is that he was in business from around 1900 to 1925.

The rifle barrel should have either a x.x mm mark, like 7,8 mm, or a gauge mark like 172/28 or 108/49. There may also be a date code of three or four digits like 1120 which would indicate a proof date of November, 1920.

Post a description of the marks on the rifle barrel, or better yet a picture, and we'll see what we can make of 'em.

Thanks men, I'll work on getting good pix posted...might not be 'till tomorrow morning..or afternoon as I have wedding hoopla to attend to. (not mine). tjw

Heinrich Leue(1837-1897) was a relative, some sources give Heinrich Barella as his uncle, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20allemande/artisan%20l%20m%20n/a%20leue%20heinrich%20gb.htm , of Heinrich Barella and that Leue was an apprentice of Barella. Can't wait to see the pics and it might just be an interesting calibre.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here's some forced translation info on Leue and he did lose his eye either by disease or an accident. Littlegun may have gotten his info from here: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG . Can any of you Greener students comment?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Don’t get too caught up by the “HofBuchsenmacher” title as it was similar to the K&K Hoflieferanten or Kaiserliche & Koingliche Hoflieferanten or Maker/Supplier to the Imperial and Royal Court and was pretty much just a marketing tool. The makers were suppliers to the court but it could have been for the gamekeeper where the top cat hunts or some relative of the top cat or one of his servants. The title wasn't limited to supplying the King/Kaiser only. For each empire there were volumes which chronicled the suppliers to the court and some particulars. But take Heinrich(Max.??) Barella for instance. In the mid 1840s he worked in Magdeburg and more than likely became a master gunsmith at or just before this time. But the mid 1860s he was a supplier or top maker to the Prussian Royal Court. And in 1871 he was a gunsmith and/or supplier to the Royal Court in Berlin. All examples supplied were supposed to be of benchmark quality but not all were owned by the Emperor/ruler and weren’t fully embellished. The appointment as a supplier was greatly sought after and I think there was a yearly fee involved. So some time between the 1840s and 1870s he probably made the transition to Berlin where the money was. Barella is purported to have had clients such as the King of Italy and Romania as well as the Tsar of Russia. I can’t say it he lived into the 20th Century but I guess not and that his heirs and assigns continued on. The same is with Heinrich Leue, (1838-1897?), as his heirs and assigns continued the business using the Hof-Buchsenmacher as a marketing tool and by 1916, or the end of WWI, I don’t think the suppliers were supplying to too many Royal Courts. Also probably beating a dead horse, but by turn of the 20th Century they didn’t make the longarms they supplied as they contracted to the best craftsmen, some of which were in Suhl and surrounding areas.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Super info, thanks boys. Lets try these pics. I took them in a hurry in the trunk of a car.
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Marshfellow:

Can you tell me if the interesting marks near the forend lug is a script "FH"? It it a pre-1910, although there are exceptions and plug gauge stamps like 67/49(0.410") are sometimes found later, longarm sourced from Zella-Mehlis(Zella St. Blasii or Mehlis at the time) as the rifled tube which experience proof with a solid projectile was sourced as a blank from the Schilling Forge(or choose the Schillings of Suhl if you wish) and Max Moller of Zella-Mehlis(Zella St. Blasii or Mehlis) was the rifled tube maker. I think the initials to be "MM" but they would be "WW". Both scattergun tubes experienced proof with shot and are choked. And 16(65mm) is the correct cartridge. Can you tell me if there were initials on the left side read of the frame? It looks like a Heym sourced frame and Franz Heym, Not Friedrich Wilhelm Heym, could have done the fitting.

Interesting device on the right side of the head of the stock(rifle selector?). I've seen a mechanism in that location on a Teschner-Collath drilling but it was some sort of barrel lock.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

added a couple of more pics

I may have missed the additional pics, so where might they be? I was hoping by now you had performed a chamber cast and confirmed the calibre was in the 10.75mm range and a 10.75X65R Collath. But I believe there's a wide girth in the 67/49 diameter.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I missed this post, so the frame was more than likely sourced from Heym.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, here's the other two...perhaps you'll see a clue

Werner von Braun's drilling?

That is a beauty.

I can't say Wernher von Braun of Myrzysk brought it to Huntsville, AL, but I'm curious if it was for the Russian market. I think this example to be one of many of a higher end piece similar to those retailed in Berlin, where the money and connection were, to dukes, kings, princes and the like but totally sourced from the craftsmen of Suhl. The unadulterated truth on the matter is that the firms, not fellas as the fellas with the appointments to supply the courts were long since passed, were the connections to the money men. I think this to be a totally Heym made piece, possibly not by Friedrich Wilhelm Heym, but by his relatives Conrad Heym(CH), who began in the mid 1870s, and Franz Heym(FH-script) was was active up till just past WWI, but I haven't searched for any connection between Fritz Heym and tube making but he could have performed the final fitting to the action. Conrad Heym cannot be found as a gunsmith in the 1840s and should have been active up to WWI, but he, Fritz and Wilhelm, along with other Heyms were decendents of:

Georg Adam Heym, master stocker?
Gottgetreu Heym, master gunsmith
Gottlieb Heym, master gunsmith
Gottlieb Heym(Jr.?), gunsmith
Wilhelm Heym, gunmsith

I haven't traced the lineage but I just might have a gander.

"16" must have been an assembly number and I'm curious what the critter is on the right side of the frame near the standing breech. Is it another Imperial Eagle?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I failed to note that D.R.P. 60215 was the infamous Heym drilling patent of May 24th, 1891 which up to 1923 was in place for 15 years so it was made between 1891 and 1906? Heinrich Leue was alive during about 1/2 of the period but I seriouly doubt he added anything to the piece.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is either more info on Heinrich Barella or more questions in an attempt to indirectly acquire info on Heinrich Leue.
Sources give Heinrich Barella as being born in 1819 in Soest, Germany( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soest,_Germany ) and died in Berlin in 1893. I think these dates to be correct and would greatly appreciate any date info from Stockel on Heinrich Barella. Additional info would aide in reconciling a name/date issue in Soest, Germany. Apparently Soest has been inhabited by Barellas from some time and even today a Waffen Barella owned by G. Kramer is a Sauer dealer in Soest-Ostönnen Germany can be found(6th one down):
http://www.sig-sauer.de/index.php?id=567...Hash=108588d141 .
But the quandary on Heinrich is that on January 3rd 1819 in Soest, Germany, a Friedrich Wilhelm Barrella was born to Anton Barella and Anna Gertrud Simon Barella. Then on June 2nd 1822 a Heinrich Philipp Johannes Barella was born to Anton and Anna Gertrud Barella. Since Friedrich Wilhelm’s brother has 3 names and considering the 1819 date, which for now I think to be correct for Heinrich Barella; therefore, I think his full name to be Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Barella. The other possibility is that his name is Heinrich Philipp Johannes Barella and his birth date to be June 2nd 1822.

He must have received his master gunsmith sheep skin prior to 1844, in the early 1840s, as in 1844 he founded his firm H. Barella Gewehrfabrik in Magdeburg, Germany. Being purely conjecture on my part, I think in the late 1840s or early 1850s Heinrich married a Leue if he was the uncle to Heinrich Leue as I can’t locate Heinrich Barella having a sister born in Soest. But the possibility exists.

I don’t know the date or any more info as the scanned transcript where Heinrich Barella was an expert witness in the Trial of Soghomon Tehlirian is quite possibly quite lengthy and difficult to navigate:
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=The_Trial_of_Soghomon_Tehlirian .


The following is something of a stretch but does have some merit to it. On June 14th, 1860 the steamer Schiller(immigrant transport) left Germany headed to Baltimore with a Wilhelmine Leue of 51 years, a Heinrich Leue(“Schuhmacher” but I think it to be a poor understanding of buchsenmacher) of 24 years, a Johanne Leue of 20 years, a Minna Leue of 18 years and a Marie Leue of 16 years all from Harrenburg(I think it to be a poor understanding of Herrenberg) all headed to St. Louis, Missouri. The probability exits for another fella born in Germany in late 1837 with the same name. If it was the same Heinrich Leue, he had to return to Germany relatively soon as Leue & Timpe were in fully swing by 1866. There is a site with a Leue & Timpe example: http://www.horstheld.com/0-leue.htm , which notes that Heinrich Leue was a supplier to the Prussian Court. And last there is a 1918 example of Heinrich Leue in “The Double Gun Journal” Volume 20, Issue 2 Summer 2009 as a scoped falling block type in 8X57IR with Barrel address:
“WAFFENFABRIK LEUE & CO. BERLIN CHARLOT-TENBURG”
“LIEFERANTEN FUR DIE DEUTSCHE ARMEE & MARINE”

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Marshfellow, I think it is a wonderful gun, thanks for sharing photos.

Pretty fabulous piece for sure.
In just the right kind of condition where you could get it out and hunt with it and not lose anything by way of a few more little scratches etc.

Will you be hunting with it, Marshfellow?



Cheers
Tinker

You're right about the condition, very nice but not so nice that you dont want to enjoy it afield. I don't own it yet, it was offered to me with 3 other vintage high grade American sporting guns which are my cup of tea. I will try to acquire the drilling shortly thanks to the feedback I got here.

Good success to you on getting the American guns.


Have you settled on a value that you're comfortable with on that drilling?
Don't take a bath on it.

The pretty carving, gold, and engraving won't likely get you very far in the resale market.
There are a lot of guys out there who'd get turned off by it, who see such things as 'Cuckoo-Clockish'
Also, the general patina and condition will also keep it from getting big dollar bids.
All you have there is a very nice looking gun that was pretty damn sure built by guys who really knew what they were doing - with an unknown rifle caliber that'll end up being a project and a budget away from popping a large rifle primer some day.

Have fun with it if you get it.



Cheers
Tinker

I think Tinker to be spot on and not to beat up on the great example of the Heym boys quailty, but I don't see any Nitro marks; therefore, it was proofed with black powder only. But the Heym boys are on par with any other craftsmen in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. I'd say the rifled cartridge is an older black powder variant. But that goes pretty much hand in hand with the Austrian/Bohemian deep relief carving. I'm curious as to the LOP.

Heinrich Leue was born in 1837 and just to throw some numbers out there lets say the average beginning age for an apprentice is 13 years, between 12 & 14 years, and the length of the apprentice stint is 3 years. So he was 16 years old when he began his 7 year walkabout in order to become a master gunsmith. So adding another 7 years would yield him being 23 years old upon receiving his master gunmaker’s sheepskin. I don’t know why, but let’s round up to 24 years as the average age for a master gunsmith. So if Heinrich Barella as born in 1819 then he should have been a master gunsmith by 1843 and he founded his company in 1844. I don’t think he could have been born in 1822 and been a master gunsmith in 1844; therefore, I think his correct name to be Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Barella(Bardella).

But viewing the price list here, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20leue%20et%20knoll%20gb.htm , one will note that Heinrich Leue and a salesman with the last name Timpe(1st name Biff?????) founded a business in 1860. So the 23 years fits well in Heinrich Leue’s case. Sources give some other happening in 1867 and I don’t know if the date is incorrect or the opened another outlet but Leue and Timpe hold patents in 1866 and 1870. By at least 1880, and I would say more than likely with the assistance of his relative/uncle Heinrich Barella, Heinrich Leue is found in the 1880 Mecklenberg top artisan list: http://books.google.com/books?id=9EO9tHG...;q=&f=false . For now I don’t know the other 3 fellas:

Johann Schmidt(maybe a relative of E. Schmidt & Habermann??) - Schwerin
Friedrich Farnow - Schwerin
Franz Leithner – Isch.

Also note the engravers as they just might surface sometime:
Adolf Otto – Gustrow
Hermann Lange – Rostock
Georg Lenthe – Schwerin. Looks like Schwerin may have had some talented or connected craftsmen also.

In 1890 Max Knoll, not the co-inventor of the electron microscope, along with Ernst Ruska, but maybe his father??? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Knoll , had the reins of the Leue & Knoll, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20leue%20et%20knoll%20gb.htm (previous Littlegun ref.) , who had 10 Belgian patents from 1899 to 1914, when the company may have folded but I’m sure there was still an outlet in Berlin which may or may not have had a different name. And post WWI the stamp “WAFFENFABRIK LEUE & CO. BERLIN CHARLOTTENBURG” is found. Looks like Leue & Knoll had a German patent in 1891 and then in 1904 their strengthened lockup patent #174828 looks something like the Purdey nose? So after 1897 when Heinrich Leue departed this world either he didn’t have any heirs or assigns, or they worked with Knoll, who had the ingenuity while just the name Leue had the connections. I expect to see examples also sourced from Belgium due to the fact if you have patents in a country as well as a shop where there are talented craftsmen as well as a proofhouse; it’s just simple economics.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, of course I was incorrect on "Biff" from "The Death of a Salesman" being the first name of Timpe but his initials were J.F. and he was the owner of Leue & Timpe. Also in his own right he was a supplier to a royal court, which court I can't say. Examples exist from the 1880s with J.F. Timpe HofBuchsenmacher atop the top rib, some of which I think to be sourced from Sauer. I have posed the question to myself if a gunmaker could be a supplier to a royal court and not be a master gunsmith, or is master gunsmith implied in HofBuchsenmacher?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Tinker, thanks for the goor advise...I am in unfamiliar waters.

Raimey, I am amazed with the info that you have put together!!...neat. I will work on getting that LOP. It may be a week or two as I have a tough time getting together with the owner. Regards Boys. tjw

Thanks Tom and you hit the nail on the head: it is pretty much composed info sometimes with a little spin of my own.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Very interesting information on your beautiful gun! I just thought I would add another example to your discussion. I own a H. Leue marked double rifle. It is marked H. Leue, Hofbuchsenmacher, Berlin. It also has the trademark of a lion in repose with Leue on the body. It also bears a crown over "U" and a Prussian eagle. The 23 5/8" barrel is marked 67/49 guage(.410 inch). The barrel is also marked with a crown over "N", and 4g GBP over St.m.g., and a crown over "N". This rifle also came with another barrel set fitted for it and made by O. Geyger and Co.,Berlin. This set of barrels is in 8.9mm. A very interesting rifle, which according to family members was owned by a family member living in Kenya in the early part of the 1900's. It was definitely a field gun, showing much even wear and use. I have some pictures if anyone is interested.

Dutch2961:

Post 'em or send them, especially of the area just ahead of the flats. The Heinrich Leue set sounds to be pre-1912 and the Oscar Geyger sounds post-1912.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse