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Joined: Nov 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Marshfellow, I think it is a wonderful gun, thanks for sharing photos.

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Sidelock
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Pretty fabulous piece for sure.
In just the right kind of condition where you could get it out and hunt with it and not lose anything by way of a few more little scratches etc.

Will you be hunting with it, Marshfellow?



Cheers
Tinker

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You're right about the condition, very nice but not so nice that you dont want to enjoy it afield. I don't own it yet, it was offered to me with 3 other vintage high grade American sporting guns which are my cup of tea. I will try to acquire the drilling shortly thanks to the feedback I got here.

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Sidelock
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Good success to you on getting the American guns.


Have you settled on a value that you're comfortable with on that drilling?
Don't take a bath on it.

The pretty carving, gold, and engraving won't likely get you very far in the resale market.
There are a lot of guys out there who'd get turned off by it, who see such things as 'Cuckoo-Clockish'
Also, the general patina and condition will also keep it from getting big dollar bids.
All you have there is a very nice looking gun that was pretty damn sure built by guys who really knew what they were doing - with an unknown rifle caliber that'll end up being a project and a budget away from popping a large rifle primer some day.

Have fun with it if you get it.



Cheers
Tinker

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I think Tinker to be spot on and not to beat up on the great example of the Heym boys quailty, but I don't see any Nitro marks; therefore, it was proofed with black powder only. But the Heym boys are on par with any other craftsmen in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. I'd say the rifled cartridge is an older black powder variant. But that goes pretty much hand in hand with the Austrian/Bohemian deep relief carving. I'm curious as to the LOP.

Heinrich Leue was born in 1837 and just to throw some numbers out there lets say the average beginning age for an apprentice is 13 years, between 12 & 14 years, and the length of the apprentice stint is 3 years. So he was 16 years old when he began his 7 year walkabout in order to become a master gunsmith. So adding another 7 years would yield him being 23 years old upon receiving his master gunmaker’s sheepskin. I don’t know why, but let’s round up to 24 years as the average age for a master gunsmith. So if Heinrich Barella as born in 1819 then he should have been a master gunsmith by 1843 and he founded his company in 1844. I don’t think he could have been born in 1822 and been a master gunsmith in 1844; therefore, I think his correct name to be Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Barella(Bardella).

But viewing the price list here, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20leue%20et%20knoll%20gb.htm , one will note that Heinrich Leue and a salesman with the last name Timpe(1st name Biff?????) founded a business in 1860. So the 23 years fits well in Heinrich Leue’s case. Sources give some other happening in 1867 and I don’t know if the date is incorrect or the opened another outlet but Leue and Timpe hold patents in 1866 and 1870. By at least 1880, and I would say more than likely with the assistance of his relative/uncle Heinrich Barella, Heinrich Leue is found in the 1880 Mecklenberg top artisan list: http://books.google.com/books?id=9EO9tHG...;q=&f=false . For now I don’t know the other 3 fellas:

Johann Schmidt(maybe a relative of E. Schmidt & Habermann??) - Schwerin
Friedrich Farnow - Schwerin
Franz Leithner – Isch.

Also note the engravers as they just might surface sometime:
Adolf Otto – Gustrow
Hermann Lange – Rostock
Georg Lenthe – Schwerin. Looks like Schwerin may have had some talented or connected craftsmen also.

In 1890 Max Knoll, not the co-inventor of the electron microscope, along with Ernst Ruska, but maybe his father??? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Knoll , had the reins of the Leue & Knoll, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20leue%20et%20knoll%20gb.htm (previous Littlegun ref.) , who had 10 Belgian patents from 1899 to 1914, when the company may have folded but I’m sure there was still an outlet in Berlin which may or may not have had a different name. And post WWI the stamp “WAFFENFABRIK LEUE & CO. BERLIN CHARLOTTENBURG” is found. Looks like Leue & Knoll had a German patent in 1891 and then in 1904 their strengthened lockup patent #174828 looks something like the Purdey nose? So after 1897 when Heinrich Leue departed this world either he didn’t have any heirs or assigns, or they worked with Knoll, who had the ingenuity while just the name Leue had the connections. I expect to see examples also sourced from Belgium due to the fact if you have patents in a country as well as a shop where there are talented craftsmen as well as a proofhouse; it’s just simple economics.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Well, of course I was incorrect on "Biff" from "The Death of a Salesman" being the first name of Timpe but his initials were J.F. and he was the owner of Leue & Timpe. Also in his own right he was a supplier to a royal court, which court I can't say. Examples exist from the 1880s with J.F. Timpe HofBuchsenmacher atop the top rib, some of which I think to be sourced from Sauer. I have posed the question to myself if a gunmaker could be a supplier to a royal court and not be a master gunsmith, or is master gunsmith implied in HofBuchsenmacher?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Tinker, thanks for the goor advise...I am in unfamiliar waters.

Raimey, I am amazed with the info that you have put together!!...neat. I will work on getting that LOP. It may be a week or two as I have a tough time getting together with the owner. Regards Boys. tjw

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Originally Posted By: Marshfellow1
Raimey, I am amazed with the info that you have put together!!...neat.


Thanks Tom and you hit the nail on the head: it is pretty much composed info sometimes with a little spin of my own.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Boxlock
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Boxlock

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Very interesting information on your beautiful gun! I just thought I would add another example to your discussion. I own a H. Leue marked double rifle. It is marked H. Leue, Hofbuchsenmacher, Berlin. It also has the trademark of a lion in repose with Leue on the body. It also bears a crown over "U" and a Prussian eagle. The 23 5/8" barrel is marked 67/49 guage(.410 inch). The barrel is also marked with a crown over "N", and 4g GBP over St.m.g., and a crown over "N". This rifle also came with another barrel set fitted for it and made by O. Geyger and Co.,Berlin. This set of barrels is in 8.9mm. A very interesting rifle, which according to family members was owned by a family member living in Kenya in the early part of the 1900's. It was definitely a field gun, showing much even wear and use. I have some pictures if anyone is interested.

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Dutch2961:

Post 'em or send them, especially of the area just ahead of the flats. The Heinrich Leue set sounds to be pre-1912 and the Oscar Geyger sounds post-1912.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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