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Jeff
That serial number would indicate that your gun was produced before the sliding cocking hook went into production (early 1902 to mid-1903); this means that the barrel lug has fixed, "C" shaped cocking hooks milled into each side. To attach/remove the barrels, one must place enouch upwards/downwards pressure on same to force the cocking rods protruding thru the frame cut backwards. Once the cocking rods clear the cocking hooks on the lug, the hammer springs force them forward into the cocking hook slot so the hammers can be cocked when the forearm is reattached. This is the cocking method employeed on SAC guns with the first and second model frames; and in my opinion, was not the best design because the process of removing/attaching barrels caused friction and wear to the ends of the cocking rods and milled cocking hooks (I've seen a number of SAC guns having this early feature that will no longer cock because friction has worn the rod ends down so that they can no longer engage the cocking hook; but this wear can be resolved with judicous tigging and refitting). I also suspect that there were many instances of broken/bent cocing rods resulting from attempts to assemble/disassembley SAC guns. The third and last model frame incorporated a redesigned lug with a sliding cocking plate very similar in operation to those on A H Fox guns in that the cocking plate engages the cocking rods only when the foreiron is attached; this re-design completely eliminated that problem. George Horne is credited with patenting this new device; but in my research I saw an early patent by Hollenbeck that was very similar in concept to what Horne placed into production, and could be where Horne got the idea. In my humble opinion, these later SAC guns are the most desireable solely for that feature; as that model incorporates all the best features of earlier SAC guns, and is the only model one can disassemble without fear of breaking something!

Thanks Ross I will let you know once we figure it out. Clapper interesting observation about the even patina and wear. I think you have a point it is a used gun that has had its issues over the years but it has lived a full life and has the age lines as it should. Now for the ejectors the right one moves slowly and does not eject but extends out further then the left which only extends a little more then an eighth on an inch on extracting.
Jeff G.

Hi Tom,
more great info, tonight I will look it over more carefully, but your description of it seems spot on. I do hear the springs on the cocking rods click into place, the guns hammers do cock without problems.
Thanks again Jeff

Hi Guys a couple of other facts. The barrels weight 4 lbs and have the number 2 on them. The balance point is about 1.25" in front of the hinge pin, definately weight forward the drop at heel is about 3.25" This looks to be an original stock as it has the std gold oval and proper checkering, the stock may have been trimmed but I don't know yet it is 13.75" to end of wood (without plate or pad).
I would like to take a moment to thank Tom Archer who was kind enough to call me and spend a few hours discussing this gun and other gun related stuff. A true gentleman, thank you Tom. On this BBS we are very lucky to have such contributors.




Thanks again, Jeff

Nice gun and an interesting thread. I have one Syracuse Arms double with steel barrels and have never found very much information on it. Tom mentions having written some articles on this subject, and I wouldn't mind hearing where I could find them. This guns' stock break looks to be very repairable, but I am of no help on the ejectors or originality of the barrel length. The LOP to the end of the wood sounds very plausible as the original buttplate would add 3/16" or so, and the average guy was smaller back then. If you can get this for a reasonable price, I think you will regret passing on it someday if you don't buy it. Money... we make more of it every day. And it's going to be worthless anyway after Obama gets through with it. But how many more of these will you see? I am still haunted by a lovely Harrington and Richardson A grade double that I foolishly passed on 15 yrs. ago.

Keith - There is a series of SAC articles in the DGJ Autumn 2005 through Spring 2007 that are very informative.

Jeff - I have a 1902 vintage SAC Grade 1 (second from bottom of the line) with POW grip. For comparison, it has 30" (honed)New Twist barrels, weighs 7 lb, balances 15/16" in front of the hinge pin, LOP of 14" and DAH of 2 7/8". I calculated the MOI to be 1.52. I find it a wonderful gun to carry afield.

P.S. Yes the gun you're considering needs some work but if it were me I'd grab it.

Hi Kieth
I too am still haunted by a refurbished c grade fox 12ga that handled like a 20ga asking price in fantastic condition was $1200. I was just getting into s x s's at the time (in the 90's) I even had the money in hand but did not pull the trigger, oh well.
Phil thanks for the comparison on the weights and balance point.
How did you calculate the MOI do you have a machine like Rocketman?
Jeff
To be clear my wanting to know market value is so that I treat my friend who owned the gun fairly

Jeff,
The July/August 2006 edition of Shooting Sportsman had an article on theoretical MOI. From what I've read the formula is pretty accurate when compared to the actual machine. The formula is:

Min. MOI = .34(wt in #)+.07(COG)+.12(LOP")-.06(Ga.")+.04(barrel")-.03(1 for sidelock or 0 for boxlock)+.04(1 for single bbl or 0 for double bbl)-4.05

COG = balance point in inches in front of the (forward)trigger.
" = inches

Guns with the following values are described as:

1.2 - "lively"
<1 - quite quick
>3 - heavy e.g. a fowler

My SAC calculates to 1.5, my Field Grade Elsie is 1.74, my 28ga Bobwhite is .94

If nothing else it provides a relative reference for those on the geeky side. :-)

Hi Jeff:

That SAC gun and the Wilkes-Barre and Parry guns certainly have an antigue engraving style. Makes me think of Eastlake furniture. I have a grade 2[?] (not certain about that) SAC "Hollenbeck" 12 that I got at the Baltimore show a few yrs. ago. Has the first cocking system but is tight, good bit of CC and very heavy damascus barrels. Might be a >3 on the swing effort scale. But no scratching of course.

jack