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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Oct 2009
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Oct 2009
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Forgive me if this has been discussed; I searched for an answer without success. I'd love to get your thoughts and why you chose a particular manufacturer's model.
Thanks!
Steve
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Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Steve,
Your question will yield many subjective answers.
My limited exposure suggests the BSS and Winchester 21 doubles would be near the top in the strongest list. But, I could be wrong.
"Best" is quite a different bar to meet. I'm at a loss as to which makers would be at the top of that list other than some of the obvious London makers. But then, if you're talking about a target shotgun, possibly a Perazzi sxs would be in there.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hi Chuck,
I don't think Perazzi makes sxs, only ou. I could be wrong.
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Chuck:
Perazzi may have made a few Side by Sides in the late 60's to early 70's, probably when Ivo Fabbri was stil there; but they haven't made any since. They only made a handful, and they are rarer then hens teeth.
Hack
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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In my opinion the long bar Webley action with screw grip third fastener is probably the strongest boxlock as evidenced by many thousands of high pressure rifle rounds that they seem to digest without a hitch. For a sidelock, it is hard to beat the H&H "Dominion" action with cross bolt. I believe these actions were also made by Webley for Holland & Holland who stocked and finished them.
All the best, Mal
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Probably and A&D boxlock action with double Purdey style underbites and a Greener crossbolt would be my guess. No specific brand, just a design. Merkel has a VERY strong action. Also perhaps Heym.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I'm sure that the best shotgun action ever is the Luciano Bosis when his very good looking translator lady was explaining the fine points of it to me at The Vintage Cup several years ago!!
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Wasn't the NID near the top of the list?
My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
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Sidelock
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Dave,
Can you describe the finer points?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The Jones Underlever is probably the strongest action type because each time you close the lever the barrels are literally screwed tight to the action. H&H and others used this action well into the 20th century for many of their biggest bore double rifles.
However, I'd never call it the "best action type" because it is slow and somewhat cumbersome to operate.
My Joseph Lang 16 bore is a Jones Underlever built in 1866 and still going strong.
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Sidelock
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IMHO the issues the NID had with improper fitting of the bolt and the guns kicking open in recoil would take it out of the running. They certainly didn't last long in the well advertised Winchester proof loads test.
Chuck, I think her name is Christina, and she is a very accomplished saleswoman.
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Sidelock
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JC, Hack,
I almost bought two different examples of a P-gun sxs. They seem to be rare and now have gone thru the roof on price.
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Sidelock
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Wasn't there one of those German 'clamshell' actions in DGJ a few years back that had every lock-up imaginable and a longer bar on the action.
Maybe not mass produced, but it sure had to be hell for stout.
Mike
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Back when I was importing them, I was thankful that pictures of blown up Darnes were not seen on any of the boards.
They built rifles up to .500 Express on the R action. There are multiple locks, including a rising bite off the lever that engages an extension on the barrels, and a compound wedge held under extreme force, when the action is closed, by a serious action spring.
I'd put the R Darne up against any barn hinge gun for durability.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Note that "Screwing the Barrels to the Action Flats" Doesn't really do anything to reinforce the bending of the breech to the bar. I would guess these Big Bore double rifles held up because of ample steel in the frame & had little to do with the method of bolting. Likewise the forward bolt of a double underbolt adds virtually nothing to the integrity of the bolting. The above mentioned Win 21 used only one underbolt with no top fastening. The one bolt was ample to keep the gun "Shut", the quality & quantity of steel in the frame was ample to take the load.
Of course a properly designed & fitted top fastener can increase the strength of breeching a great amount, as it gives the breech support both top & bottom.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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I say the Darnes are in the running, Ideals pretty damn stout also.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Sidelock
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Darne R-series hands down, and probably the most durable as well. I've seen many loose Webleys, screw grips and all, and I've also seen a couple of loose Manufrance Ideals. I have NEVER seen or even heard of a loose Darne or a Darne with blown barrels or damaged action. Only problem I've heard of regarding Darnes are the stocks.
Guns built using the Jones Underlever system would probably be next in line. I'm not talking about underlevers with a spring that "snap" back automatically, I'm strictly refering to the manual lever system that actually "SCREWS" the barrels down to the action.
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Collath. (Strong, not best.)
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Sidelock
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"Likewise the forward bolt of a double underbolt adds virtually nothing to the integrity of the bolting." Exactly right.
As for 'screw' type locks, we've all seen threads get sloppy over time and eventually wear out. They are also dependent on proper tightening for strength.
As for barn hinge guns, jealousy is never a suit that fits well.
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Sidelock
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I don't think you guys are even close. My vote would have to go to the Ljutic. (You never thought of that, did you?) Their life expectency is easily a million rounds. And then you might need a firing pin. There are so few parts in them, there is hardly anything to wear out. There was an article on Ljutic #1 a few years ago and it was used well past one million rounds. All that was put into it was a firing pin and maybe something else minor. I have been shooting mine pretty much for eight years and the only thing that I have had trouble with was the small pin that works the ejector broke. And I never wanted it to begin with. When it broke, I just kept it with extractors. But, the Ljutic sure gets my vote...... Perazzis are good too, but there are too many parts in them to go wrong. They are probably good for a few hundred thousand rounds.
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Boxlock
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Thanks guys for all the responses! Being fairly new to doubles, I'm intrigued by the Darnes and Ljutic since these names are new to me. I guess my question should have been; if you were tasked with building and machining the strongest, most durable, action/frame for full power 3" 12ga loads, what existing model would you base your design off of? "Best" was the wrong word since that's a really subjective term and probably based on more factors than just strength. If you guys have pictures of any of these please post or feel free to email directly to me, sd.lister at hot mail.
Thanks again!
Last edited by lister1911; 10/27/09 01:03 AM.
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Chuck:
That's one of those - "If I only had the chance to do it over again" deals. I've got a few of those also.
Hack
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There are lots of great actions that can handle such a load. I don't know how many people will agree with me but a simple underlug action with a Greener Crossbolt is the route I'd take.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Sidelock
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L1911, Here is an article on Darne. JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Chuck, good to know, just in case one pops up in these whereabouts at a lowly price.
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Hi Lister 1911:
I can remember reading in the early 60's that P.O. Ackley claimed that the Winchester 97 was the only shotgun that he would consider for a rifle cartridge. I think that he did indeed make up some 97's chambered for rifle cartridges at the time and they worked quite well. I always took what he said with a grain of salt!
Perhaps others may recall of him making this statement.
Franchi
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I would expect any well designed multiple lockup system, using modern strong alloy steels and oversize locking surfaces to hold up well. Oversize hinge pin, cross bolt, and underlug would seem plenty. Modern Merkels would seem to be good choice. Only "problems" I see with my 100 or so year old hammer doubles is the "soft", low-C steels they are made of, as well as, sometimes smaller locking surfaces than might be desirable.
Niklas
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I think the answer to lister1911's questions may be moot in practical application. The "best" to one person may be a ill fit to another that shoots for different reasons. For example: a Ljutic or Perazzi target gun of heavy weight would be a terrible chukar/quail gun. The reverse: A H&H or Purdey light game gun worth a couple hundred thousand dollars would be a bad choice for most target shooting applications that consume hundreds of thousands of rounds.
Once again, more evidence that many guns are needed (by me anyway). I'll tell my wife again.
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Sidelock
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Thanks guys for all the responses! Being fairly new to doubles, I'm intrigued by the Darnes and Ljutic since these names are new to me. I guess my question should have been; if you were tasked with building and machining the strongest, most durable, action/frame for full power 3" 12ga loads, what existing model would you base your design off of? "Best" was the wrong word since that's a really subjective term and probably based on more factors than just strength. If you guys have pictures of any of these please post or feel free to email directly to me, sd.lister at hot mail.
Thanks again! We can only learn if we ask questions. Strength is a relative issue in this case. You can build for strength, eg will survive 5x a proof load, or you can build for reliability, eg can go for 100,000 rounds without any parts wearing breaking. So often these discussions focus on one or the other. A truly good gun is a comprise that hopefully takes strength and reliability into account. I am happy with a monobloc and greener cross bolt. Are there better designs around? Yes, but I will never need them. Pete
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I recall Roy Dunlap in his book "Gunsmithing" saying the 97 Win was strong enough to handle a .30-06. P O Ackley may have said something very similar, Dunlap just happens to be the one I read.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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LeFusil, come over here and I will show you loose Darne's, also Darne with huge crack between hook and barrel flats etc. No doubt the strongest action is bolt action with smoothbore bbl, Marlin for example or Russian MC-20-01 bolt action smoothbore gun or smoothbore M-98. But if we talk about double gun - I forgot the name of the company that made double bolt action gun (H&W ?), hope someone could refresh my memories 
Geno.
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Gregsy, go get your .500 express Parker, and take a picture of it for us to see.
I'll give you $10 to see a photo of you picking up the pieces, after you shoot it, too.
For the record, I own a few "barn hinge" guns, but, I'd never be stupid enough to think they are as strong, or resistant to wear and Murphy's law, in the action as my slider.
Jealousy has nothing to do with it. Just the facts, like when I had to show you how the Blue Oval boys taught the wing car guys how to race back in the day.
Best,
Ted
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LeFusil, come over here and I will show you loose Darne's, also Darne with huge crack between hook and barrel flats etc. Instead of us buying a ticket to Russia, how about just posting some pics?
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LeFusil, come over here and I will show you loose Darne's, also Darne with huge crack between hook and barrel flats etc. No doubt the strongest action is bolt action with smoothbore bbl, Marlin for example or Russian MC-20-01 bolt action smoothbore gun or smoothbore M-98. But if we talk about double gun - I forgot the name of the company that made double bolt action gun (H&W ?), hope someone could refresh my memories Sorry Geno, I'm just not going to take your word for it. I flat out dont believe you. I will have to see pics and video of a "loose" Darne, and I would like to see pics of the cracked barrel. I imagine any gun, even a cannon could be f'd up with the right dummy experimenting and doing foolish things to it.
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Sidelock
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Remember, they did set a graphite pile nuclear reactor on fire over there, if anybody could blow up a Darne, it would be them. Dustin, I've got photos of the ancestor of the V action that has a crack in the sliding breech, but, the gun shows clear evidence of abuse, and likely dates to the 1870s. I'll try to get some digital copies one of these days. When ever someone makes comments about damaged Darnes, the first thing I ask to see is the name on the gun-almost always a copy.
Not all of them are created equal.
Best,
Ted
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A easy one- if an American mfg. boxlock ejector gun for your 3" 12 heavy mag loads- the Burt Becker/AH Fox HE or Super Fox- the only thing I might add is rebounding hammers to the simple and strong as hell AH Fox action- If you want a European mfg. boxlock ejector to meet the same criteria- the Lindner Daly gets my vote- I won't discuss Over/Unders or Limey guns as they aren't "my bag"-- I have a older 12 2E Smith now with 32" Nitro tubes and 3" chambers- not a Longrange- and I use it with the Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles loads and it eats them up, spits them out and the Geese drop like Lead Zeppelins- The older Smiths on the longer R frame with the larger barrel lug into the receiver recess are great guns, what gave Smith the "bad rap", IMO, was the complicated and trouble-prone Hunter One Trigger--
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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With all due respect, the double guns most often photographed in a blown up state and submitted for all the world to see on the internet are Fox doubles.
Don't know why, or how, but, there have been LOTS of them, right here.
Best,
Ted
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Sorry, no pics now, all been eaten by virus 2 years ago.
La Fusil, it will be your panishment for telling fairy tells about Darne strongest action to go here and to find a lot of Darne crap in the shops.
Darne is just another double gun with weird action.
You don't belive me, thats your business, I got no reasons to lie.
You with Ted recall me pack of hound dogs barking at moon.
Geno.
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Veeerrry interesting there Ted. Never knew that- but in a way, the Devil is in the details- as now there is hope that the SOB who boosted Nash Buckingham's "Bo Whoop" Dec 1948 may have had it do that and he ate Chromox shrapnel that day-Of course, one might also wonder- why did a game agent need to check a double gun for a 3 shot plug?? RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Sorry, no pics now, all been eaten by virus 2 years ago.
La Fusil, it will be your panishment for telling fairy tells about Darne strongest action to go here and to find a lot of Darne crap in the shops.
Darne is just another double gun with weird action.
You don't belive me, thats your business, I got no reasons to lie.
You with Ted recall me pack of hound dogs barking at moon. Hmmm. Speaking of fairytales and bedtime stories, that might have been the hardest thing I've ever had to read and try to make sense of. Show me or post the pics/video of a true Darne that is loose, cracked or blown up from "regular" use. Thats pretty easy....and then you can add why you believe the Darne action to not be the strongest, most durable in the land. True its a weird action to most, but thats got nothing to do with it. Or how about you suggest another action that is as strong or stronger....maybe something like George Hoenigs "Rotary Round", I believe that might be just as strong if not stronger than a Darne?? Thats my challenge. I told you before that I'm not going to just follow what the Rasputin of double guns says because he says it. If myself and Ted remind you of hounds barking at the moon, then you remind me of the little gay pied piper of doubleguns playing your catchy tunes to all the gullible kids in doublegun land.
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Sidelock
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LeFusil, me personally fixed two R guns before selling, there was some loose between breech sliding block and barrels. Just one little shim had to placed, where lower breech block located.
And plz stop talking like that, I mean Rasputin or whatever you or Ted say. Hope you got it.
Geno.
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Hmm, what's a nice girl to believe?? I sort of go with the double-rifle crowd; got to be Merkel or Chapuis, Verney-Carron? Maybe anything at Cracker Barrel that falls into the hands of Sherman Bell? I can't see it has anything to do with bolts or rotary locking lugs as those only appear as a rare novelty on doubleguns and doublerifles. That would make them the str[a]ngest rather than strongest.
jack
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C'mon, Ted. I thought the board was getting away from this chauvinist nonsense. Many of us here remember that the Russians also didn't operate with disastrous rubber seals in their rockets. Canada also chose the most dangerous assignment in Afghanistan, with losses per capita twice that of Americans. And Britain, France, Italy and Germany---where to stop? There's enough stupidity to go around without slinging it here. I'm tired of it.
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And he also very conveniently forgot about Three Mile Island as well, King!
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Sidelock
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One more thought, the most expensive guns got the strongest action. You'll never shoot hot loads in 100 thousand pounds gun. From this point of view any damascus barrels are much stronger, than barrels made from fluid steel
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Many here conviently forget that the Soviet Union was no more than a large enslaved encampment for most of the last century, with hysterical leadership murdering millions of their own. Not too far fetched to imagine sporting gun maintenance being somewhat far down the list for the wretched few who might have had them. Remember, Soviet leadership tried, and failed, to have proper maintenance done on a pair of English bests, only to be told the guns were stolen-I don't suppose the English had to tell them the original owners had been murdered by that same leadership, as well. You want to call it chauvinist nonsense, go right ahead, I say it bears directly on the question at hand.
People struggled. Their implimentaria bears witness to the struggle.
There is plenty of stupid to go around, but, the world has never seen anything like Soviet stupid-comparing TMI to Chernoble only drives home the point. No other country ever tried to produce so dangerous a design as a graphite pile reactor, or paid so heavy a price for it. Under that mentality, a people tried to survive. I wouldn't be surprised if their hammers and anvils are un-usable, when examined today.
If Geno wants to claim every single Darne he has ever seen is loose, well, I say "look around, pal". The rest of the world hasn't had the same experience.
Either of them.
Best,
Ted
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I din't tell every single Darne is loose. I did tell Darne strongest action is myth and that's true.
Why everybody here has to read your hysteria about USSR?
And I'm not your pal.
Go to h*ll, Ted.
Geno.
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Sorry, no pics now, all been eaten by virus 2 years ago.
La Fusil, it will be your panishment for telling fairy tells about Darne strongest action to go here and to find a lot of Darne crap in the shops.
Darne is just another double gun with weird action.
You don't belive me, thats your business, I got no reasons to lie.
You with Ted recall me pack of hound dogs barking at moon. Ah ha, I see how it is Mr. Geno, you can say whatever you want, however rudely you want, but someone bites back and your first reaction is to tell that person to "plz stop talking like that". I guess thats where we differ as well. Again, all rudeness aside, please show me some pics (or even some video) of of all crap Darnes that you find at the shops, I would really like to see all crap loose, broke down Darnes that you are seeing, please, I invite you to change my mind sir and show me the light. I wonder how come nobody else who has had actual experience with Darnes is piping up about how they've seen, or even heard of a loose Darne. Matter of fact, unless some idiot took a file to the locking bolt and the raceway, I find it damn near IMPOSSIBLE for the breach to be loose when locked. Prove it Geno, quit asking me to take your word for it, all I'm asking is for you to prove it, treat me like I'm from Missouri.."Show Me".
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Sidelock
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No problem. It will cost you about $1000. I have to call to all shops around and to check all adresses I knew, then I have to go and to make some photos and videos. Are you ready to compensate my expenses? You are not that guy or friend of mine I have to prove something for free. Is it clear?
Do I need you to send you my bank account # ?
Geno.
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Your a joke Geno. I'm done with you. I wouldnt pay you one bloody cent or a worthless ruble for that matter EVER. Oh, and this just in....you still havent proven thing sir and you never will, why? Because your full of it. You may not even know it, but your Russian sense of humor doesnt fly with me, I have always thought you to be a very rude person, and you come off as an egotiscal know it all. I dont have a very high tolerance level for people like you. I'll end my part of this before I say anything rude. :-) Take care Geno, stay warm.
Dustin
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Sidelock
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I mean it. If specifically you want to get some important information from me you have to pay. It's not Russian sense of humor, it's American way of life. BTW, who told you I'm Russian? I live in Russia now, but my last name Charcot, it's French name.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Ted, Dustin, don't worry, it's not for you. Fact 1 about French steel. This is page from Desk Book For Hunters And Sportsmen, 1956 The part marked red says about high grade Darne 12G, 29 1/2" barrels, bbls weight 1230 grams (45 oz), 65 mm chambers. 7 1/2" from muzzle large torn hole 2" long. Committee of gun experts established, that ammo was OK (1,85 grams Sokol nitro powder, 32 grams of lead shot - aprx. 425 Kg per sq.cm crasher pressure), no foreign objects damage, but wall thickness in this place was 0.02" and this was the reason of such rupture.  to be continued.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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The gun wouldn't pass French proof, then, or, now, in the condition you describe Geno. It would have failed the view exam at the proof house, IN ANY PROOF HOUSE, in Europe, to begin with. French proof would have torn it to pieces with .020 barrel wall thickness.
Why would you post that as evidence of anything, Geno? It would appear to be an owner altered, actually a very badly owner altered, gun.
For what it's worth, your illustration is terribly out of scale-there is a location lug that fits into the front of the watertable on a Darne, but, it has more distance from the lug at the rear than is shown.
Not sure what your point is. Unless, you are making my point for me, and showing how brutal the conditions are for sporting guns in the hands of Soviet era Russians.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Ted, there is a two beer limit on this BB. Please try to observe it before posting.
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Sidelock
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Hey Gang- enough with the pissin' contest already- a very good question, with answers all subjective to our own experience levels, has turned into a Rat-*&^%$#' derby- with NO WINNERS_ except maybe the antis and PETA numbnutz who also read this and other websites- We've got an anti-gun POTUS at 1600, a more feminsta set of bookends on the Supremes (Thank God Justice Tony Scalia is a duck hunter- he might not be a Goombah, but at least he knows a Binelli from a Browning- mention Browning to any of the the other dipsticks who get the big black robe and they'll think you are discussing dead poets- So enough with the politics and international comparisons- remember what Old Abe once said about a "House Divided"!!
Last edited by Run With The Fox; 10/30/09 07:30 PM.
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Not to interrupt and errant thread here, but I don’t think the words “best” and “strongest” are necessarily correlative. Let me throw in “durable,” too.
Strongest is only important if the intent is to run magnums through it all the time or do some nutty tinkering. Best is a matter of function, style & grace, with a healthy dose of durability thrown in. I suspect that most of us are highly conflicted gun philanderers, born to be eternally uncertain as to which gun we really think is the best. C’mon, tell the truth.
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Sidelock
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Oh, I was just kidding Ted. By calling him a drunk I really meant he didn't know anything about cars and his knowledge of guns is suspect, too. I have no idea if he really drinks even a drop.
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Sidelock
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I have no idea if he really drinks even a drop. French car drivers and French gun sellers in US do not drink at all. Too risky 
Geno.
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Sidelock
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I've asked gun funs at one of the most popular Russian guns site to send me photos of defective Darne's and Darne' clones and here is it, the first photo. Darne with crack in chamber. 
Geno.
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Sidelock
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lister,
Regarding strong actions, for currently produced actions, I'd look at Fabarm's double hook/lug or the Verney-Carron triple hook/lug.
For vintage actions, it may be worthwhile to look at the Cashmore Nitro and the Rigby/Bissel Rising-Bite.
For O/U Purdey's failed Sextuple grip.
-Jim
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Sidelock
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Yes, Geno, we can all clearly see where it says Darne on that set of barrels.
That fact aside, why does the crack seem to be indented in your photo? A crack resulting from pressure/use would tend to be wider at the opening outside the chamber, not indented, as this one clearly is. That would indicate external trauma from the outside of the gun. Again, you have posted evidence of nothing.
They built close to a million of these guns, and we have ONE guy who has a complaint, who posts hand drawn illustrations of a gun, he admits, was well out of proof, (.020 wall thickness, at the junction of monoblock and barrels) and a photo of a gun of some sort that has what is clearly damage caused by external forces, to the outside of the barrel.
You have to come up with some legitimate evidence, Geno, before you have an argument. You haven't done that, yet.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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There's enough stupidity to go around without slinging it here. I'm tired of it. It does get old... Geno has more than enough credibility on this board that I'd never question him. Anyone can look at a Darne and see it's mouse trap that never was.
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Sidelock
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One million produced-name another double with that kind of credibility.
Here's a hint-you will have a tough time doing it. One other point occurs to me-what difference does it make who someone with zero credibility gives unquestioning credibility to?
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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I don't think any firearm be it a rifle, a handgun or a shotgun is used as extensively as a trap gun, which has to perform over thousands upon thousands of rounds.
Last I heard out of the 15 medals awarded at the previous Olympics for trap shooting 11 of the shooters used a Perazzi.
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Sidelock
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A guy at my gun club had a Perazzi SxS it was owned by more than one member...rumor is it was nothing but trouble ?
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Sidelock
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Wow, didn't this become an unseemly brawl.
For what it's worth, Greener Empires, with their crossbolt and long, deep action bar, are sught for conversions to double rifles. Don't know if that makes them best r strongest (for what?). I wonder if there's ever been a falling block double shotgun made?; such a thin would have to be pretty tough; I klnow I've seen a falling block single used for pressure testing catridges - the barrel shank was about three inches thick...
RG
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Sidelock
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Good on you, Mate- for your analysis of the "pub crawl brawl" we both have sensed here- credability much be crudability to some, one man's Foster Lager is another man's Flying Philadelphia Fig- what difference does it make, excepting maybe if Bill Gates was a gun enthusiast, how many of use could own and shoot them all long enough to really know-most durable guns will be (hopefully) passed on to another generation- Being a devout pre-64 Winchester man, I recall that Parker Ackley once rebarreled a 12 gauge Model 1897 pump into 30-06 and it functioned without a flaw afterwards- Edwin Puglsey took two Model 21 20 gauges and had them rebarreled in the custom shop in .405 cal. express rifles (believe one is in the Cody Museum now) and I have a Model 12 Pigeon Grade Trap gun made in 1948 (old milled rib, 30" Imp. Mod. choke) that was purchased new in that year- and shot continously from 1948 until 1975 by a ATA class A shooter averaghing over 250,000 registered targets (16, doubles and handicap) plus all the practice rounds- still has original firing pin, works like it was new-RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Sidelock
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In the real game gun weights - and this excludes the M21, IMO, I'll opt for the Linder Dalys. They are trim and light, yet have the mechanical advantage of a long water table (a la M21, only lots less metal where it doesn't matter for strength). And they were beautifully made to boot...wish I had one.
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Sidelock
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The only reason Perazzi is used in the Olympics is due to pressure put on the Olympic teams by certain Italian Jews who run the international canned good concern west of the Gaza strip who act as front for the KGB. It has nothing to do with quality.
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Sidelock
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Well, a whole lot of trap shooters use them, regardless if they're getting endorsements or not, both amatuer and professional along with the Krieghoff. Subjecting a shotgun to Argentina type dove shooting every weekend, yep the proof is in the puddin, those two are the strongest.
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Sidelock
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The K80s had a run of exploding barrels a few seasons past. I don't know what the reasons were, but, it happened.
I'd not be interested in hunting with a Perazzi without a young gun-bearer in my employ. Until they work for minimum wage, I'm out of luck, I think.
Still waiting for Geno to post some legitimate evidence of an actual defective Darne.
Suspect I'll be waiting a long while.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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And I bet Geno's waiting to see your Moss'n'bug pump.
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Sidelock
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Maybe you can give him lessons on what to look for in a sleeve job?
You 'da expurt 'bout 'dat. 'Ain't ya?
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Teddy  I wish I still had that sleeved Purdey...but when a guy offers you hundreds upon hundreds of Moss'n'bug pumps in trade what's a fellow to do.
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Sidelock
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There is still lots and lots of sleevers out there for you, don't cry. Never seen a Mossberg sleeved, have you?
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Your a joke Geno. I'm done with you. I wouldnt pay you one bloody cent or a worthless ruble for that matter EVER. Oh, and this just in....you still havent proven thing sir and you never will, why? Because your full of it. You may not even know it, but your Russian sense of humor doesnt fly with me, I have always thought you to be a very rude person, and you come off as an egotiscal know it all. I dont have a very high tolerance level for people like you. I'll end my part of this before I say anything rude. :-) Take care Geno, stay warm.
Dustin Well, I sure am glad you ended before saying "anything rude." Nice to keep things civilized and pleasant. I mean, this is the gentlemen's gun group on the net, eh?
R. Craig Clark
jakearoo(at)cox.net
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Sidelock
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Your a joke Geno. I'm done with you. I wouldnt pay you one bloody cent or a worthless ruble for that matter EVER. Oh, and this just in....you still havent proven thing sir and you never will, why? Because your full of it. You may not even know it, but your Russian sense of humor doesnt fly with me, I have always thought you to be a very rude person, and you come off as an egotiscal know it all. I dont have a very high tolerance level for people like you. I'll end my part of this before I say anything rude. :-) Take care Geno, stay warm.
Dustin Well, I sure am glad you ended before saying "anything rude." Nice to keep things civilized and pleasant. I mean, this is the gentlemen's gun group on the net, eh? I never claimed to be a gentleman, my roots are too blue collar to claim that. Sorry. By the way...how long have you been a member here on this bbs? I've been on here since 99' and I've read alot of post over the years...and certain people smack of elitism and snobbery and rudeness, Geno is one of them, has been since I've been here. Did you read his replies to my post?? What wasnt rude about that? And still, he has yet to prove anything he says...he post pictures from a article that claims to show a defective Darne, one picture of blown barrels that arent even from a Darne, and the bottom picture is of a blown drilling. And this clown has credibility? Why? Cause' he was friends with a true gentleman John Mann and wrote some articles for the double gun journal and post pics of Matskas??? He tells me to go bark at the moon and I call him the Rasputin of doubles and he gets all hurt feeling'd?? If John came on here and told me to leave Geno alone, I would. I respect John that much. Maybe go back and read how Geno responds when he disagrees with someones elses opinions or facts for that matter. I treat people how they treat me Mr. Jakearoo, be sarcastic, come off condescending..thats what your gonna get in return. I dont bully people or start feuds, but I do have a propensity of firing back a salvo of my own when someone put one across my deck. Sorry if thats "ungentlemanly".
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Sidelock
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I think it was the late Bill Wise that befriended Geno, and wrote the article in DGJ with him, Dustin. John Mann liked everybody, from what I could tell. That said, I'm in agreement with you. The Russian guy has bad-mouthed Darnes for years, but, hasn't really shown anything specific to them to support his thoughts. When an idiot like the Tennesee clown says he doesn't like a Darne or a Mossberg pump, that's a good reason to go buy one, in my opinion.
Geno, come on, lets see some evidence. Anytime now.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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All this over a French clunker.... 
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Sidelock
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Silly Moi!! I thought a French clunker was either the Chatcquat WW1 machine gun designed by a team of drunken Chinese acrobats, or the numbnutz who came up with the great Maginot Line concept after WW1- all the guns had fixed positions facing West toward Germany-didn't take the Wehrmacht sappers long to do the same thing we do when shooting wary woodchcuks- when he pops out of the hole and spots you, do a 180% on him, 99 times out of a 100 he'll be looking in the same direction as before when he does his "Up Scope" number-
Also recall what George Smith Patton Jr. said about the French- how he'd rather have one French division ahead of him than three French divisions backing him up-- Best movie line about the French (and I mistakenly thought Geno was a Russki- apparently he is a Frenchie- c'est la vie) was from the detective spoof movie about 20 years ago "Murder By death" Peter Falk plays a street tough Sam Spade in the "Clue at the Two-Two Twain" Mansion, and James Coco plays a swishy Hercule Periott-- Falk snarls at him (Coco) "Up yours, Frenchie!" and Coco replies saucily: "I'm NOT a Frenchie, I'm a Belgie!""
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Sidelock
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Yah so much for good Christian teachings, what happened to turn the other cheek.? Maybe when at your service this sunday do some thinking on it. Firing of salvos over soemthing as juvenile as this? Could be some of you guys have too much time on yuor hands? CB
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Sidelock
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I once had a Mossberg that needed sleeving but it turned out that by affixing a 6" rubber suction cup to the muzzle it had more value as a plunger.
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Sidelock
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 I heard that
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Sidelock
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If anyone ever needed a steel shank toilet plunger, it would be you, GregSY. Or, jOe.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Is a Darne just not worth sleeving....is that what up sets you Teddy ?
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Sidelock
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Ah, a chance to enlighten an idiot.
A Darne is a monoblock design, the originator of the concept. Instead of a soldered/brazed/collection of the barrel stubs, under rib, top rib, solder, braze and whatnot that was included in the hack-sawed remains of your Purdey sleever, there is a solid, machined chunk of tool steel. This can be heated and repaired, over and over, pretty much forever, since it is one piece.
Sleeving, involving a hacksaw, like your gun did, isn't how a Darne is repaired. The silver solder is heated, the barrels someone like you damaged when you fell on them, backed the truck over them, or, whatever, are removed, the monoblock cleaned, and brand new tubes fitted and re-soldered.
Sleeving, as it were, doesn't happen to a Darne, jOe-make a note of it, would you?
Again.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Ah, a chance to enlighten an idiot.
A Darne is a monoblock design, the originator of the concept. Don't really want to get in the middle here between you & Joe but it is noted that US patent #246,195 was issued Aug 23, 1881 to one Henri Pieper of Liege Belgium for a "Means of Uniting Gun Barrels". I believe it was patented in Belgium about a year earlier. While Pieper did not use the term "Monoblock" this was in fact a monoblock design, plain, pure & simple. Pieper referred to it as his "One Piece Steel Breech". (A Rose by any other name is still a Rose) If you don't mind would you enlighten us as to just how much earlier Darne "Originated this Concept".
Last edited by 2-piper; 11/04/09 06:18 PM.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Charlins done similarly, Ted? Not that I need new sleeves--er uh--pants. Luv them little rib ramps on those Frenchies. Fun fact to know and share: Walt S's book illustrates a Flues with the same sunk rib and ramps. I got one--12 ga. from 1918. Like to have a Manufrance Gun & BIke "ee--day-al". Bodio ways we ain't supposed to say eye-deel.
jack
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Sidelock
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Darne originated the concept of using steel, forgings, in the case of his guns, not damascus, for the barrels, ribs and sub-assembly monoblock, in 1902. The patent issued to him was not refered to as a monoblock, either, but, as "Canons Frettés".
Pieper, using damacus for both, had an obsolete design almost before his patent was issued, at least where French gunmaking was concerned-damascus, was pretty much a thing of the past by 1881 in St. Etienne. The French got out of Damascus a few decades before anyone else, and were involved in getting US companies out of it at the turn of the century.
My Charlins always had plain, brazed barrels. Bodio speaks more French then me (I can say "I'm hungry" and curse at a waiter, more than enough for my travels in France) but, when in Rome, or, fly-over USofA, Ideal works for me.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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It is true that Pieper was using damascus/twist for the tubes, but "NOT" for the breech piece (Monoblock) this was made of steel. Considering that Twisted bbls would remain in wide use for another 3-4 decades I would not call that Obsolete. Now I am not one who is Down on French Gunmakers, just like to give credit where credit is due. The French indeed had several Firsts in gunmakiking, the monoblock just didn't happen to be one of them.
PS; My Halifax also has plain brazed bbls.
Last edited by 2-piper; 11/04/09 10:57 PM.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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That is the hallmark of a Halifax. Brazed barrels. As to the specifics of why Mr. Darne was awarded his patent in 1902 for the fretted barrel, or monoblock, after Pieper had a previous, similar patent, I can't say, however, I can say that Regis Darne took it and made it a wildly sucessful innovation.
What did Pieper do?
Twisted barrels were not used in France for 3 or 4 decades after Pieper's patent. They took to steel tubes from the onset.
Best,
Ted
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Teddy you need to start a new thread for your Fwench bumper jacks....this thread is about the best and the strongest not the most novel action. Wee wee...miz'zure....comprehende AmigO'
Anyone with even half a brain knows the Purdey patend 'double underbite' combined with the W.& C.Scott patend 'top lever' is King and will always be King.
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Sidelock
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I think your hacksaw needs some exercise, so, go find one to work some magic on. Never seen a loose Purdey, homy? You need to get out more. Geno needs to put up with some documentation of a loose Darne, too.
Still waiting Geno.
Best,
Ted
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Manufrance catalog 1890  That illustration stayed in the catalog and did not disappear until the 1905 edition. Which says nothing except they were making the steel barrels cheaper than could produce damascus themselves or purchase from Belgium. This is the same time frame that the British stopped damascus production. As for Pieper's monoblock, here is a thread that shows a bit of it: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post164088If any one wants the entire Rapport du Jury from the Paris exhibition, I can provide that. Among Pieper's patents was an oven for brazing barrels. I do not think one is better than the other. It is very common to see similar patents from various countries. They simply did not have the means to do the pre-application searches we do today. In France it was possible to file an "temporary patent", in Belgium, patents were filed at "district" offices; making searches nearly impossible. Pete
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I think you will find that it is a rare Manufrance gun built after 1885 that has damascus barrels. I know for fact that this is the case with Darne guns, the 1894 patent R was never available with damascus barrels. The previous examples I've handled, including an 1870s vintage prototype R, were all steel barreled guns. The sliding breech guns started with brazed steel barrels and the grades higher than Halifax got monoblock barrels around the time that proof with powder T came into use-1900. There were several grades of Halifax, at one time, and monoblock barrels were an option on the higher grade.
I have seen a model A Darne pivot breech gun with damascus barrels, that design was patented in 1887, but, was likely in production earlier, maybe much earlier.
Best,
Ted
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Ted....
Isn't it just shocking that the rest of the world didn't run out and copy the Darnes sliding breech like they did the Purdey double underbolts and the W&C Scott top lever.
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Sidelock
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More enlightenment needed here. The world ran out and copied the Holland & Holland action, jOe. The Purdey is not actually copied to the extent the H & H action is, for reasons you can look up on your own.
If you saw the list of companies that built Darne clone guns over the years, you would realize just how asinine that statement you typed really is.
They built A MILLION guns with their own name. As I aksed you to do before, name another gun company that has built a million double guns jOe.
Doubt you noticed, but, when you buy a new Purdey O/U, you get a monoblock gun. Regis Darne is laughing out loud, somewhere.
Best,
Ted
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Too bad they all got used up as Toe'matO stakes.
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Well I don't have production numbers on them but would not surprise me in the least to find that Stevens made about a million Double guns, they didn'y bother to SN theirs though until forced to do so by law in 1968. I don't think the numbers built built has much to do with "Best" or even "Strongest" often more to do with "Cheapness". Re T-Model Ford vs Roll's Royce. Doubt you noticed, but, when you buy a new Purdey O/U, you get a monoblock gun. Regis Darne is laughing out loud, somewhere. You're Still Ignoring that Regis just "Copied Henri" with that block, he don't have anything to laugh about there. Now "IF" that Purdey is a Sliding Breech then its another matter, but I don't think so. The mat'l used for the tubes of course has absolutely nothing to do with the principal of joining them. Piepers can be found with Twist, Damascus & Steel tubes all fit to his "One Piece Steel Breech" which was not made of damascus/twist on any of them as you so adamantly implied.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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best and strongest gun for the least money is a late stevens 311 with walnut stained birch stock.
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Fact is...any gun that hinges on a pin where the metal can wear away from either the pin itself or on the hook will, if used enough, become loose on the face and require some sort of fix. A Darne will never become loose, despite what "others" aka "Geno" say. Still have never seen or heard (from a credible source") of a loose Darne. jOe, there are no loose Darnes. When it comes to Darnes, the only thing I've ever seen wrong with one that would keep it from being operated safely is severe neglect. The spiral springs inside the breach block come from a Lebel rifle, they are hell for stout and if they happen to break...they still keep on working. I'm sorry gang, until someone shows up with a legitimately worn out Darne, and by legitimate I mean worn out from normal, everyday use, not neglect, you are going to have a hard time convincing anyone who cares that there is a stronger more robust double gun out there. I've seen a few worn out Purdeys though, even sleeved ones. I know where there's one right now waiting to be restocked, it wobbles on the face and sounds like worn out cv joints on a car, and it needs new mainsprings too, but the gun sure does look pretty on the outside.
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Sidelock
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If a Darne was so great the rest of the world would've copied it.
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If a Darne was so great the rest of the world would've copied it. Good Lord jOey, IT WAS COPIED. Do your homework jOe, there are a few countries in which the Darne was copied. You get a F minus if your homework is turned in before 1st period tomorrow. No chance for a "A" in your case jOe, F minus is as good as its gonna get. Hey...anybody seen Geno anywhere?
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He's probably tired of wasting his time talking about the Darne bumper jAcks.
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If a Darne was so great the rest of the world would've copied it. Ya, your probably right jOe. Hey, he shouldn't feel so bad, I'm the one who lost a star over all this HuLlaBaLoO. Have a great weekend JoEy ol' boy.
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I'll tell you what, Miller-The MAIN thing I implied is that Regis applied for, and received a patent for his version of the monoblock, in 1902.
That fact is indisputable. The 1902 Patent is mentioned in every single catalog I have, going back to 1909.
My secondary point, that you chose to ignore, is that Regis Darne died FABULOUSLY wealthy in the late 1930s. That he made a ton of money off the patent for the monoblock issued to him, is indisputable, also. Pieper was an also-ran in the gun business, by any way of comparison, with Regis Darne.
I explained to you that I didn't know exactly how they differed, but, Pieper's is illustrated in patent literature with damascus materials, and Darne's is not. I do know Darne applied for, and had his patent renewed, in the 1930s.
So, to make you happy, today, lets say Pieper patented a monoblock of some sort, that must have differed in some critical way from a monoblock that was later patented by Regis Darne. Belgium and France aren't on opposite sides of the world, I'm sure Darne knew about Pieper's patent and Pieper knew about Darne's. And, for some reason, a lot more examples, like, say, 975,000, of the Darne patent monoblock exist today.
For whatever reason.
You happy now?
Best,
Ted
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Hey Dustin!
If Ed "the Torch" has a star, they don't mean squat, anyway.
Have a great weekend. Trying to educate jOe is like herding cats.
Pointless.
Best,
Ted
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"I'll tell you what, Miller-The MAIN thing I implied is that Regis applied for, and received a patent for his version of the monoblock, in 1902. That fact is indisputable. Patent number: 246195
Filing date: Apr 23, 1881
Issue date: Aug 23, 1881
http://www.google.com/patents?id=QiBMAAA...;q=&f=falseMy secondary point, that you chose to ignore, is that Regis Darne died FABULOUSLY wealthy in the late 1930s. That he made a ton of money off the patent for the monoblock issued to him, is indisputable, also. Pieper was in also-ran in the gun business, by any way of comparison, with Regis Darne. Pieper started his business in 1859. The business continued until 1958. Along the way he was one of the founders of FN. Henri did not die a poor man in 1898.I explained to you that I didn't know exactly how they differed, but, Pieper's is illustrated in patent literature with damascus materials, and Darne's is not. I do know Darne applied for, and had his patent renewed, in the 1930s. There is no mention of damascus in the Pieper patent. Not sure what difference the barrel material makes, they all passed proof. A proof that was accepted in France.So, to make you happy, today, lets say Pieper patented a monoblock of some sort, that must have differed in some critical way from a monoblock that was later patented by Regis Darne. And, for some reason, a lot more examples, like, say 975,000, of the Darne patent monoblock exist today. Where is the Darne patent available? By the way, Darne was not the only one with a sliding breech http://www.mot.be/w/1/files/RCB/RCB057001.pdfPete
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Ted;
It is an "Undisputed Fact" that Henri Pieper received a patent for his one piece breech in 1881, Now that is 21 years earlier than 1902. Patents are granted every day on items which have been previously patented for some change, often very minor & not even necessarily an "Improvement", just something a little different. Pieper's first patent had the bbls inserted from the rear, later he made models with them inserted from the front of the block. I have one of these which almost certainly predates 1900 & the breech piece "IS NOT DAMASCUS", but steel. Whether either or both of them died a pauper or wealthy is immaterial to the discussion, the fact is the innovation of a one piece breech in joining shotgun bbls belongs to Henri Piueper, not Regis Darne. That is all I am saying, not that hard to understand now is it??? As to which I personally like the best, well I like my Halifax better than my Pieper, even though the Halifax doesn't have the mono-block & the Pieper does, but what does that prove. A Big Fat Nothing. Actually I like my Lefevers better than either of them.
I still believe in giving credit where credit is due, & for the Mono-Block that goes to Henri Pieper which is a well known fact & confirmed by I guess about every gun knowledgable person in the world, except of course those who simply blind their eyes to truth that doesn't suit their fancy.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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I've seen one photo of the Pieper patent (NOT the one you posted, Pete) and it shows a Damascus gun. That COULD be the difference, maybe not, however.
Material, damascus or steel, makes no difference to the proof house, IF it passes, but, it might make a difference at the patent office when one of the materials is a new one, in a new application, which fluid steel would have been-again, I don't know why there exist two patents for the same thing.
I don't have a number for the Darne patent for "Canons Frettes" of 1902, but, I'll work on it.
The last link you listed doesn't open, but, I am aware there were several sliding breech designs that weren't Darnes, or Darne copies. The Levi 4 round double illustrated in The American Rifleman comes to mind.
Best,
Ted
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Ted; Just relax a little, nobody but Joe is attacking your Beloved Darne & all he wants is to get under your hide. Try using your brain in a reasonable manner for awhile. I don't know why there exist two patents for the same thing. Are you not aware that Remingtron, Winchester, L C Smith, Parker, Lefever, Fox, Ithaca, Etc, Etc, Etc "ALL" have patents on Double Bbl, self cocking, hammerless shotguns. A good example is Winchester received a patent on a bbl check for the model 21. Now bbl checks had been in use for at least a half century before the 21 came on the market. Perhaps some feel this one was an "Improvement" many others don't, but it is different. "IF" you can find that Darne Patent, most likely you will find that Regis Darne did not patent the "Concept" of the Mono-Block at all, but that he patented some particular feature of one which he changed enough to receive a patent. If I had the time an inclination I could go through patents & list you a few million patents for items which had been previously patented on their basic concept. It is also most likely the actual fact of his mono-block patent played only a small insignificant role in his ultimate success.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Ted;
Try using your brain in a reasonable manner for awhile.
That was a good one Miller....impossible but good. There really was only one French shotgun gunmaker I think his name was Parley or something like that. I've held two examples in my hands one a thumb push and the other a top lever both hammer guns. Both guns looked to be strongly influenced by Purdey. No toe'matO stakes there Tedd'e
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Well, Miller, his ultimate success was such that, he did not renew his original patents of 1894, etc, in 1909, leaving anyone who wanted to build a copy of the Darne gun from that era able to do so, including his son. Many did. The monoblock is pretty much what differentiated his sliding breech guns from others and he did renew that patent at least once. How many Darne copies have you seen with a monoblock? There is a reason for that.
Pete, that Francisque Darne patent illustrated above is an improvement to a patent that was allowed to lapse-Regis Darne's patent of 1894. Would that patent had been granted to Francisque, had Regis not allowed the original to lapse, is a good guess, from this juncture. Can you say for sure, one way or the other? I can't.
Didn't I say (which, you seem to have repeated, Miller) that there must have been something different between Pieper's and Darne's patents, that allowed them both to have one on a similar invention? Use your eye's, Miller.
The last Pieper I got to see, a 28 gauge hammer gun, wasn't a monoblock gun. That makes three Pieper guns, and I can't honestly say any of them were monoblock designs. I know he built them, but, I haven't seen any.
Joe must not know who Granger is. Or Bernard.
Best,
Ted
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The last Pieper I got to see, a 28 gauge hammer gun, wasn't a monoblock gun. That makes three Pieper guns, and I can't honestly say any of them were monoblock designs. I know he built them, but, I haven't seen any.
Best,
Ted
Not taking sides but here's my Pieper Monoblock. It's steel with damascus barrels. Canvasback 
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Like I said, I know they built them, just don't get to see many. Thanks for the photo.
Best,
Ted
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Ted; You are simply missing the total point of anything I have said.The olny thing I have even discussed is this statenment Ah, a chance to enlighten an idiot.
A Darne is a monoblock design, the originator of the concept Now let me say it One More Time in as plain a language as I can; "Regis Darne Did Not Originate the Concept of the Monoblock". "Henri Pieper was some 20 years ahead of him". Whether you have seen one of them or not is totally beside the point, nearly everybody else in the world has. We have I think given you quite adequate proof that he indeed made them "First" & in fact in very large numbers. He made guns with two styles of monoblocks, with chopper lumps & perhaps other methods of joining as well. I am not really all that knowledgeable on just what all he did build. My one & only Pieper happens to be one of his low end hammer guns having the "Twist" bbls screwed into the front end of the " STEEL Monoblock". This is the pattern he refered to as the "Modified Diana" as opposed to the "Original Diana" as pictured above. My bbls have a smooth transition rather than the step down at end on block. "Both Types" were produced prior to Darnes 1902 patent. What more can I say, I have no problem with your liking a Darne. I like my Lefevers, but I am totally aware that Uncle Dan didn't invent the Shotgun any more than Regis invented the Monoblock. Yes I am totally aware that Darne utilized the monoblock on most of their guns, most I have seen were so built, not arguing that, but he did not invent it. Would totally love to see his patent to see just what he did patent. You do also I suppose realize that patents are not automatically renewable, that has to be applied for & is not always granted. Quite often the patent authorities rule the patentee has been amply rewarded for his "Invention" & deny any renewal, thus opening it up for anyone to use.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Kinda sounds like Ted is trying to convince us Darne was the originator of the sleeved barrel gun.
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If you guys think ol' Ted is trying to rewrite 150 year old history when it comes to guns, you should see what he tries to do with 40 year old history when it comes to cars. And don't even get him started on 'President Gore'.
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..Pete, that Francisque Darne patent illustrated above is an improvement to a patent that was allowed to lapse-Regis Darne's patent of 1894. Would that patent had been granted to Francisque, had Regis not allowed the original to lapse, is a good guess, from this juncture. Can you say for sure, one way or the other? I can't. Ted, I think the confusion revolves around when a patent can be filed and granted. Francisque could file all the patents he wanted with out Regis' patent lapsing. As long as there is an improvement! Many gun makers filed multiple patents around the same concept as they refined it. Do a search on http://www.google.com/patents for breech loading! Notice how many have "Improvement" in the title. Also, when a patent revolves around a mechanical device, the materials involved are rarely mentioned in the patent. At most, only a generic term like steel is used. So, the whole fluid - damascus issue simply does not exist. You invent a monoblock. Miller improves upon it. You file. Miller files one year late. Both patents are accepted. In today's world, Miller would have to acknowledge your patent, but that is a relatively recent part of the process. As long as Miller produced guns based on his patent, you can not complain. Pete
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OK Miller, he didn't originate it. He designed one, patented it, later, and built most of his guns that way. It would also seem he kept quite a few copy-cat makers of guns, based on his designs, from producing monoblock guns, for a long time.
Pete, I do understand the improvement thing has relaxed in recent years-which, is why I pointed out that I don't know if the patent granted to Francisque would have been considered enough of an improvement, to a sliding breech gun, back in the day, to justify him getting it. The year, 1910, is suspect-one year after the original was allowed to lapse.
Do you know, for fact? Again, I don't.
In the end, you don't sleeve a monblock gun, per say. Which, is where I was going. Thanks for clearing my mistake up. "Originator" is not correct.
GergSy is just jumping in (not with anything factual about a gun, per usual) because I showed him the Winged Mopars had fewer wins in NASCAR when they came out, and did not have the number of wins the (Gasp!) blue oval guys did in that era.
He still can't accept that idea. But it's easy to look up.
Al Gore? Didn't he invent the internet? And, doesn't he refuse to debate a few people about the existance of global warming?
And, again, jOe you are wrong-I'm trying to convince you that you don't sleeve a monoblock.
And, still waiting for Geno......
Best,
Ted
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Hi again!
I just came in from the trip and let me remind you the first question of this topic:
Best / strongest double shotgun action ever made?
Does R.Darne sliding system is the best and strongest ever made?
Definatly not.
All I know about this photo, it's Darne Halifax and crack in chamber probably was result of double nitro powder load.
Geno.
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Geno...Maybe we need make new thread for Ted. 'Wierd'ist shotgun actions'.
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Two more Darne's in a row of 4 guns and second from the right with visible gap berween barrels and sliding breech. http://gunz.ru/img/602/prev/3.JPG
Geno.
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Ted;
I think you are somewhat beginning to see the light on this origin aspect, but let me add one more little bit. First off I am not a patent attorney & am certainly not up on all aspects of International Patent Laws.
Now "IF INDEED" Darne prevented anyone from building a basic monoblock design after the expiration of Pieper's Patent it would of necessity have been through some "Nuance" of French law & would have been applicable "ONLY" to some other French maker.
Certainly after the expiration of Pieper's Patent the basic concept of a monoblock was "Wide Open" for all.
In fact if Darne was granted a patent on a monoblock itself & not just some modification of it, it would have to be that Pieper had never applied for a French patent & France did not recognise it. Certainly the rest of the World did.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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It doesn't seem like the monoblock caught on, outside of France, until after the 2nd world war, Miller. Regis Darne died in 1939. Manufrance made lots of monoblock guns after the war, and some before.
Why would Pieper patent the monoblock in the US, where he had little, if any competition, and not in France, where there would be huge competition with Belgian guns? Understand, I am not arguing your point, just questioning the logic at the time.
You keep saying "IF" where it concerns Regins Darne patenting the monoblock, of "Canons Frettés", and while I can't give you anything in digital picture form, with a number to go with it, I have found numerous copies of information stating that he did indeed do this. One, is a photocopy of a 50 year anniversary brochure on Regis Darne and his company, released by the St. Etienne chamber of commerce in 1931. Ten patents are listed, including those he held for a lightweight 1200 round per minute machinegun, intended for use on aircraft, in 1916, and his 1902 patent for, "Canons Frettés" or, as we call them today, monoblock barrels. That patent was renewed in 1922. The converging obturator disc was first patented in 1908.
When it is all said and done, Regis may simply have had a much better lawyer than anyone else, including Pieper.
Geno, every one of those guns you posted looks to have been seriously abused, even the non-Darnes. I can destroy any gun, if that is my intention. But, thank you for posting ONE picture of a low grade Darne in need of a gunsmith.
Best,
Ted
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Ted;
I am not saying that Regis Darne did not obtain a patent on a monoblock of some kind. My "IF" is to whether it was the concept of the monoblock or just some mod of it.
As a good example I have read probably a thousand times that Samuel Colt "Patented the Revolver". If you read his patent you will find that he did in fact "NOT" patent the concept of a revolving cylinder. He in fact patented the hand & bolt, connected to the hammer for the purpose of rotating the cylinder & locking it in alignment with the bbl upon cocking the hammer. The concept of the revolving cylinder itself had been tried & used to some extent for at least Two Centuries prior to "Ol Sam Colt".
I was simply giving some possibilities of how He "Might" have received a patent on the monoblock principal, Still not sure that he did. Until such time as I can read that patent or here it from someone who understands it I have not the slightest. To be totally honest you are just too prejudiced to be a truly accredible account.
My real thinking is that Pieper did file his patent in France & that Darne simply filed for some slight modification. After Pieper's patent had expired then any maker could have used his features, just not the portion which Darne held the patent on.
There are of course still many makers even today who are still not using this design, many prefer other methods. In fact there are many who still consider the chopper lump superior to the monoblock.
I very seriously doubt that the use of the monoblock made a vast difference in how many guns Darne sold. I really think that the reason most either bought or did not buy a Darne was based primarily upon their view of the sliding breech, not the method of joining the bbls.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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It doesn't seem like the monoblock caught on, outside of France, until after the 2nd world war, Miller. Regis Darne died in 1939. Manufrance made lots of monoblock guns after the war, and some before.
Why would Pieper patent the monoblock in the US, where he had little, if any competition, and not in France, where there would be huge competition with Belgian guns?
Have you ever seen an early Beretta catalog? Beretta was using the monoblock early on and continues to do so today. Sears 1897 catalog showing a modified diana. Pieper had several sales outlets in the USA including SD&G. Notice the warning about fakes.  A later German catalog.  No one said Pieper did not file a French patent. I just do not have copies of it. Handbook of patent law of all countries By William Phillips Thompson 1905 http://books.google.com/books?id=rjAMAAA...=gbs_navlinks_sBelgiumPatents of Invention are granted for twenty years, subject, however, to the payment of an annual tax of twenty francs before the end of the first year, thirty francs before the end of the second, and so on, increasing ten francs each year. Payment of these taxes must be made within the calendar month during which they come due, but can, in default, be made good by paying the tax and an additional fine of ten francs any time within six months of the date they come due. FrancePatents of invention are granted for fifteen years, but fall void with any prior foreign patent for the same invention, except when obtained under the rules of the International Union. Certificates of addition are granted for additions to, or improvements on, any existing patent, and to expire with the same. The duration of patents can only be extended by special Act of Legislature, very rarely obtained. Pete
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
Geno, every one of those guns you posted looks to have been seriously abused, even the non-Darnes. I can destroy any gun, if that is my intention. But, thank you for posting ONE picture of a low grade Darne in need of a gunsmith.
No, it's wrong design. There are 2 small holes in chambers for pins rant holders and this area in chambers is very weak. Every engineer could tell you that. On pic there were the same crack in this hole area and TIG welded later. Metal thickness was so thin in this place any hot load could did this crack. Take care with this French stuff. http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/002620/2620174.jpg
Last edited by Geno; 11/10/09 03:57 AM.
Geno.
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Joined: May 2008
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Words of freakin' wisdom there Genie!! Suspect anything of Frenchie originins- remember the old couplet : "Oh. the French, they are a most curious race- for they fight with their feet and &^%$ with their face!!" Ooh, la la indeed..
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,772 Likes: 758 |
Geno,
Any engineer will tell you that the cut for the cartridge RIM in the breech ends of the barrels also makes them weak-but, every single gun has them. And, the only guns that fail, in that area, are being, or have been, abused. Conventional guns, or, Darnes.
You said it yourself. A double nitro load was suspected. However, I believe a bore obstruction was more likely, if, in fact, the crack is related to internal pressure-it appears to be closed from the outside, and cracking inward.
Admit it, Geno, there are a lot of old Darnes out there, the number 600,000 was out the door by WWII. If they were as bad as you make them out to be, we would see many, many more in damaged condition.
We don't.
Best,
Ted
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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I told you before you just didn't see Darne's in damaged condition, I did. You just play here.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
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You got that right Geno...he plays.
Ted'e...If there was so many darn Darnes built then where are they at ?
Burried in some French landfill I suspect.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Yup- right next to old Jimmy Morrison- no more "Light my Fire- or Bite my Wire" for the Jimbo-prolly out chasing some bare-assed Indian Chief in the Peyote flats desert--
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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I wonder anybody saw or heard about DR Darne at Safari?
I had Darne's and its clones and allways it was a bit problem to reload this type of gun. When you have break open gun it is much easier and especially in trouble situations.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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Darne DR has been around since 1900, Geno. It's nothing new, except, maybe to you. When I was "Playing" in France, I got to shoot the model R Express, in both 8X57 JRS and 9.3X74 at the under-ground range at the Darne shop, and handle (but, not shoot, sadly) Paul Bruchet's 1910 built V action, in 450-500. My Proof house visit showed that the Darnes didn't fail the highest proof in Europe, at least not in the memory of the proof master working there at the time (1996).
It is easy to see the guys who will have trouble loading a Darne at a very early age-they are the same kids who get picked LAST for sports teams at school.
Good luck, Geno.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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It is easy to see the guys who will have trouble loading a Darne at a very early age-they are the same kids who get picked LAST for sports teams at school.
I was one of the first in school sport team, Ted. Do you want to hurt me, Ted? I'm realy sorry for you, Ted. Goodbuy, Ted.
Geno.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
If the Frogs make such world class firearms (LeBel and Chaqqacuat LMG-1914- Maginot line 1930's et al) why did the greatest gun designer to ever use a drafting table (John Moses browning) go to Liege, Belgium in 1903 and have FN make his A-5 autoloading shotty gun (after Edward Bennett at WRA brushed him off and Marcellus Hartley at Rem-UMC fubared the deal with a big time heart attack and John was cooling his Morman styled heels in the waiting room at Ilion- and why did FN make all the great autoloading pistols for WW11 and beyond- I carried an FN 9mm "in country" great weapon, as was/still is the 1911 and 1911-A-1. Show me one Frenchie made military weapon that has stood up next to the masterful hand of John Browning and his pals at Leige BELGIUM--The Darne shotgun may be OK, but Regis Darne- Regis Philbin- Regis Dustbin- WTF is up with that??
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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What happened at Ft. Hood ain't good- Clean up America-wipe it up with a Towlie!! What is a "Towlie"?
R. Craig Clark
jakearoo(at)cox.net
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