doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1890 J P Sauer Sidelock transition gun?

Gentlemen,
Please see photos below re a ~1890 J P Sauer Sidelock
two barrel set : 16 X 16 and 16 X 11mm.
I am thinking that this is a transition gun from damascas barrels to fluid steel as it would have preceeded the Sauer 1892 patent utilizing dovetailed fluid (Krupp)barrels.
My questions:
1)what would be the likely source of the fluid steel 11mm barrel?
2) how would I go about sourcing ammunition for the rifle?
> is black powder necessary or can modern smokeless powders
and primers be used ( obviously much smaller volume)
with the appropriate brass/ bullets?
> do the barrel flats provide enough information for a custom
provider to supply ammunition, or would chamber slugs be
needed?
> are there custom ammo makers that could provide ammunition
( who?)
> what modern cartridge would the rifle's established
cartridge be comparable to ?
thanks!
best regards,
JBP

Short answer to all your questions - Yes.
Rifled caliber 11,15x60R known as .43 Mauser. BP ammo with lead patched bullet. Can be loaded with modern nitro-for-black powder.
Sure you could find ready to use ammo in US.
Nice gun btw

That's a mighty fine set there, JB! .43 Mauser is not tremendously difficult to find; one source for BP loaded ammo is Buffalo Arms ==> link here <== and another is Gad Custom Cartridge

Quality Cartridge also offers correct brass.

The 11,15x60R (.43) Mauser is pretty comparable to the US .45-70 and nearly identical in performance to the .43 Spanish/.44-77 Sharps. It's a great hunting round!

I believe the last commercially available smokeless .43 Mauser cartridges were the Canadian manufactured CIL Dominion brand, at least outside of Europe. I bought what will probably be a lifetime supply of them from another member here. They are still available on the internet auctions, but collector interest has driven the price too high to shoot them. I have bought and shot some of the Buffalo Arms black powder shells and also had the guy at GAD handload some smokeless for me. GAD is presently the cheapest way to go unless you want to get into reloading.

I'll second the opinion that .43 Mauser is a great medium size game round. You have a very nice Sauer...Geo

It may very well be an Sauer example from circa 1890, but the cocking indicators, horizontal rib, selfcocking stamp atop the tubes, Calibre(CAL: 181/182) all point to a 1892 production. The blade type indicators seem to appear in the 37k series. The early psuedo sidelocks still had the hammers in the frame. I can't really read the "CAL: ?" stamp and am curious if the other scattergun tubes have similar stamps. Usually the "CAL: 181 S" stamp is seen along with "BERN" and was exported to Switzerland or went to Switzerland via Eduard Kettner. Usually after the "592H" will be the initials "gKH" with the "g" being sort of a lowercase script. I'd say the pattern welded tubes were sourced from Belgium and the rifled tube is cast unless stamped otherwise. What type rifling does it have(Henry)? There are several variations within the 11.15X60 and unless a 11mm Mauser just drops in, and probably anyway, I'd make a chamber cast and slug the bore just to eliminate the variables. But extra effort and expense was dedicated to craftsmanship and pattering.
On the combo, what are the initials on the pattern welded tube next to the rib? Also, I've been chasing the "CRF"(???) stamp as seen on the rifled tube. I think it to be a large "C" with a "R" and "F" overlapping. Many times it is seen on the lower rib as well as on the tubes. Both sets wear a multiple/double "caveman" series. Nice find.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
your expertise is much appreciated!
There are 7 rifleing cuts with a slight convex " hump" between each slot. Is this the Henry style you reference?
I have attached a few more (larger format)photos for your review. Any additional information you could offer would be valuable.



best regards,
JBP

J.B.:
Let me study on the pics but all seem to bear "CAL: 18?". And the way it has been worked off it makes me wonder if Sl(Belgian) make the tubes? I had thought those with the "CAL: 181" "S Bern" acquired the "CAL:181" in Bern, Switzerland but this example may offer more questions than answers. I'm pretty sure that it was P.O. Haggards of Sweden that has a 1894 Bastman catalogue which has a very similar model with a very similar safety. And it was Haggards noting the "CAL: 181 BERN" as a Swiss import mark. For now I can't say but maybe the "CAL: 18?" was already there?? Sometimes the load data is on the tube. But interesting too how the serial number and stamps associated with Sauer have also been worked off. Take XX,XX16, underside of the right tube and it should read "Imperial Eagle"(Eagle of Justice-Cate), "Caveman with staff", "CAL:18?", "S" or "Sl" and then "gKH"(all possibly script).

It sounds like Henry rifling but can you correlate it with any diagrams from his U.S. of A. patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=kU5rAAA...;q=&f=false


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

JB - I have some .43 Mauser ammo I might part with. Send me a note at clayws@earthlink.net

I don't have SI as a Belgian trademark, however SL was Joseph Sarolea's mark until about 1892. Then it was registered by Syndicat Liegeois.

Raimey,

On the last picture, notice the script W on the damascus tube? I have never seen that one before.

Pete

PeteM:

It was Syndicat Liegeois, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20syndicat%20liegeois%20gb.htm , I was considering and trying to remember about what time they began. I think that mark to be a script "M" and to have been stamped from the other side like many initials. "M" is seen on many Sauer examples such as the other set of tubes. "Sl" is also seen on many sets of tubes which I think to have been sourced from Belgium. The lack of marks on the rifled tube is what sets me to pondering. Also, considering how all the marks are worn, at some point and possibly early on, an extra effort was applied to the set. But all the marks are there to indicate that the 2 tube set was completed at Sauer as well as extra effort was expended toward the pattern. Also note the same numbers and letters on the lower rib. Like many, the marks are quite the puzzle.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Geno:

I like that large "S". Any idea to whom it might belong?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

J.P.S&S made barrels of their own and sold them to Simson even. Sauer was the only maker who had the right to put Krupp trademark 3-ring (Special barrel steel) on barrels and we can see this 3-rings not only on Sauer guns. And my guess letter S belonged to Sauer.

Any idea if Sauer fabricated the rifle barrel? Could it have been sourced from Krupp without any proof marks?
Also - please see attached photos - can you provide information on the label and whether the case might originate from the factory or from the retailer?







best regards
JBP

HAIRSBER?? I'd say Sauer peddled the 2 barrel set and the fitted case is authentic. I'm a huge case fan and really like the case by the way. Any better idea of the letters after "nach" like L?? ggg?

What's the difference in tube length in the set, 2 inches? Is one set 28" and the other 26"?

For now I think Sauer made the tube with the Henry rifling and imported the scattergun pattern welded tubes from Belgium. Now they could have easily have imported the rifled tube from Belgium also. But I don't think they did on their drillings. I would say that it was cast, but then again I don't see a Guss Stahl stamp either. If it were fluid and considering the time period, why wasn't there a advertising blitz with fluid steel stamped all over it? And how would you convince some to choose a non-pattern welded type with the other 3 tubes being pattern welded? Today if someone handed you a double with 2 distinctly different tubes, wouldn't you ask "Why???"? Maybe they wanted to keep fluid steel a secret for another year or so???? I think Sauer made it but I know they had a forge for components but an curious where their hammer forge was or if they sourced some of the work to the Jaeger klan of Johann Georg, Sr., Johann Georg, Jr. & Valtin Jaeger. But then again there's the cypher of the "CRF"(Funk as a wild guess) that is seen of tube of this period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
the shotgun set is 29" / the combo set 27 5/8".

I believe the word in bold may be HAINSBAR?

As far as the script lettering after nach:
maybe : Lre or Lei or even Hre then your guess
gyg, or ?
Could it be Leigge or similar?
thanks again.
JBP

JBP:

Is the 29" tube a shade longer to equate 74cm? Also the cape pair would be 70cm. Does either set have a menacing muzzle or crosshatching? I was hoping someone would translate the label but it is something to the effect of 2 pieces, 162, von, and then 2 prepositions. Something to study on for sure.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I could translate it if I could see it...can't make out the words.

Okay I'll take something of a stab at the translation of the tag. It appears to my eye as a sort of shipping tag;

stuck 162 von HAIRS??? nach ???? uber ???? Roughly translated "Piece 162 off (or from) HAIRSXXX (a ship perhaps) to ??? via(uber) It certainly appears to be a an inventoried piece of luggage from some sort of shipment. The faded green script (hand written) will likely translate the "from" and "to" destinations...if one could figure that out from abreviations and faded letters. Jeff

I forgot to note that I would guess one of the "M"s to be for tube maker Max Moller(possibly of Moeller & Kellner-Zella Saint Blasii) if he was active during the 1890s and the other "M" for one of the Moritz fellas like Wilhelm Moritz of Zella Saint Blasii who founded his firm in 1869. Post WWI a Franz Moeller partnered with Martin Moritz on some venture. But the craftsmen with the letters "M" had to be a mechanic at the Sauer facility.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Actually two 100% identical M.
I don't see any reason Sauer&Son oredered tubes from the outside. S&S was one of the biggest gun and barrels maker at the time.
One more pre-1912 Sauer gun.

Geno:

I agree that the tube craftsmen worked at Sauer. But easily one of the aforementioned fellas could have worked at Sauer depending on the magnitude of orders at the time. Sauer made mainly Krupp tubes and I am curious if any other type steel tubes bear the stamp of the caveman with a club? It is possible that only the bigger concerns kept a serial number ledger and it wasn't until October of 1928 when a new gun law forced all makers to keep a serial number ledger, which I think could be inspected. Production of military weapons during WWI really established the connections for sourcing.
The stamps of the caveman with a club on the flats just may indicate assembly at the Sauer plant. I see what looks to be a "M" on the inside of the left tube, of course the script "MM" on the lower rib and what looks to be a "KW" on the right tube. I don't think "M" was for mechanic but was the initial of the craftsman at Sauer, possible in an apprentice/journeyman program?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
re your barrel length question.
combo barrels : 16 ga X 43 mauser ( bullet from clayws fits perfectly) : 73.5 cm
16 X 16 shotgun barrels: 70.2 cm

any significance ?
barrels definately not cut.
best regards,
JBP

J.B.P.:

I was just curious if the tube lengths were closer to metric or English integer dimensions. Is there crosshatching at the ends?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Robert Emery of Pittsboro, NC has Sauer no. 437XX as a DR and he converts 0.348" Winchester to fit his need. I think he turns about 0.10" off the rim. His with Henry rifling in some sort of cast tubes has very similar marks with the "g9g9" on the lower rib as well as the "T" on the flats. That lowercase script "g" is interesting in that one sees that all over the early Sauers. I'm waiting to confirm if it carries a "Crown" over "V" or any proofmarks, but up until now I don't think it wears any. And on the right rifled tube, I don't think that lone "caveman with a staff" is a quaility mark but is akin to the lone "caveman with a staff" marks seen on the flats of Sauer assembled/fitted doubles. It just may indicate that Sauer finished the tube but the accompanying encircled "CRF" monogram mark could be the hammerforge.
Kind Regards,

Raimey

The above pic of the tubes carries the "CHRK"(?) monogram, maybe with or without the "H" and the imprint can also be seen on the rib where it is also found, where it looks to be worked off. May the Klett's forged the cast tube as well as the lower rib and Sauer finished them. I don't think it to be a Belgian monogarm like the "Sl" on the pattern welded tubes. Maybe the "M" on the pattern welded tube is for mechanic?????

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think this example give some insight as both tubes were sourced in the rough and then finished by Sauer denoted by the Imperial Eagle and Barbarian(Caveman with a staff). Neither of the tubes were made at the Sauer plant. Then there are 2 quality stamps of a caveman with a club(unless he had to fit the tube twice) as well as the crowns and a sequence of Imperial Eagle, Caveman with a club and crowned S&S(Sauer & Sohn early mark).

By the way, Mr. Emery's example appears to have the Piper chamber/stepdown:


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I failed to mention that the "Papp" is for a cardboard(waxed??) cartridge. Does Rottweil RWS/GECO still manufacture their cardboard cartridge?

Sauer double 45960 was "on-hand" or "in stock" in early 1893:


Anyone think the initials next to the backwards "K" are "EJ"?



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've long searched for the explanation for the Bern stamp and even though it may not be a typical Bernard pattern I am all but positive, well positive, that the stamp is:

CAL: 18.1 S BERN

Where the 18.1, 18.2, etc. is the measured diameter. I am also very confident that these pattern welded tubes were sourced from Liege.


Sauer Hammergun with large and small crowns and DAMR


Sauer Hammergun with 18.2 S BERN 115 on each tube

Dr. McPhail has a new 8 bore acquisition with PP that I might need to add to this thread.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Now it could be that the ID diameter is in mm instead of cm so it might be 181mm or 182mm, etc.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here's one of Dogs and Doubles site:

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/2013/04/good-gun-alert-an-awesome-16-gauge-j-p-sauer-hammergun/


CAL: 170 D BERN
CAL; 168 D BERN

Not sure if the D BERN is a higher grade pattern welded tube that the S BERN.

DD: do you have a more in-focus image?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And then there's CAL:182 S BAND - have not idea for now.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...e6172d7d6ab57c4

Has my ship run around & I'm all alone?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Another Sauer with unique 4 number kalibre being >>1681<< and >>1710<< along with the letters >>SE<< all which were applied by Liége mechanics and the reset of that German Chicken Scratching are Sauer internal Process marks including the Large & Small Crowns.

Skimmin' thru several threads, I see:


S Band
S Bern
D Bern
SE - which I think to be S. Étoile....

RDAM....

Typically one sees rough tube diameters applied by Liége mechanics but this specific Sauer has 4 digits.

Hause & I have been discussing such, but since the numbers are sometimes so close, like 181, 182, I hold that the number is for each individual tube, but again I do not know what the reason was for 4 numbers???

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=bern&Search=true#Post324947

Hochachtungsvoll

Raimey
rse

Band-Damast-Läufe
Bernard-Damast
Crollè Damastläufen
Garibaldi-Damast
Hufnagel-Damast Läufen(„fer de clous“)

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ords=hufnagel&Search=true#Post548912

I don't think the German Names apply, but what do I know???


Hochachtungsvoll

Raimey
rse

More names here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IHGMMB82PAgFIzHTeoepYvzzE1uqDZSC_MTWH8vv0fE/edit?tab=t.0

No idea as to Ferlacher Gedreht (turned) and Halbgedreht (half-turned), Ferlacher Austria 2, and I don't believe I've ever seen a Garibaldi pattern Maybe Giusppe Garibaldi?

Interesting point there Hause & maybe Sauer was sourcing from Austria/Ferlach & that's the reason for »Cal«¿¿. Those Austro Hungarian mechanics fancied the term Cal.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Appears my Griffon de Korthals was barking up the wrong pattern welded tube Tree¿

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, ole Giuseppe Maria Garibaldi may have scrubbed a few off before he passed or maybe some mechanic may have wanted to throw a little fame his way & name a pattern welded tube after Giuseppe Maria Garibaldi¿

Adds a little Italian flair¿

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So maybe >>RDAMAS<< is Damas Rosen??


Hochachtungsvoll

Raimey
rse

I seem to recall that a few pattern welded tubes, Charles Daly, were stamped >>HUF<< but I must wade thru all the threads to try to find a foto.



Hochachtungsvoll

Raimey
rse

Ah, hah..... It was on the barrels of Charles Daly Hammer Drillings:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...amp;Words=shuf&Search=true#Post43222

Hochachtungsvoll

Raimey
rse

S Band
S Bern
D Bern
SE
SHUF - S. Hufnägel - („fer de clous“)

Hochachtungsvoll

Raimey
rse

Well, ole Garibaldi is getting interesting. 😎 I checked the original 1879 Berzava page. This is an advertisement by the Liège gun factory Guil. Van der Straeten et Cie., and “Garibaldi-Damast” is indeed explicitly listed among the Damascus barrel grades/patterns. Even better, Rosen-Damast is listed separately. So Garibaldi-Damast was definitely a genuine Liège trade term by 1879 — while Giuseppe Garibaldi was still alive. That still doesn't prove that the pattern was named after him, but your joke may have been closer to the truth than we thought!

In this single Liège source from 1879, we therefore have Ribbon Damascus, Hufnägel-Damascus, Garibaldi Damascus, Turkish Rose Damascus and Bernard Damascus listed side by side — complete with a clear price hierarchy. Quite a remarkable find! 😎

German:

Centralfeuer-Doppelflinten (Hinterlader-Lancaster).
Kal. 16 stets vorräthig. Die anderen Kaliber werden auf Bestellung gefertigt.

Centralfeuer-Doppelflinte mit Gußstahllauf — 42.00
„ Doppelflinte mit echtem Band-Damast — 58.00
„ Doppelflinte mit feinen englischen Bandläufen, Doppelschlüssel-System, marmorirter Garnitur — 60.00
„ mit feinen Hufnägel-Damastläufen, System Martin, welches durch einen an dem Bügel anliegenden Schlüssel geöffnet wird, Halbhornbügel, mit Jagdscenen oder anderer Gravirung. Beste Büchsenmacherwaare, pro Stück — 90.00
„ Doppelflinte, Garibaldi-Damast, englischer Schlüssel unter dem Bügel, engl. Gravirung, sehr gut gehärtet, Schaft in Oel matt polirt — 95.00
„ Doppelflinte, Garibaldi-Damast, Doppel-Schlüssel, englisch graue Garnitur mit diversen Jagdscenen. Mit Zündstift am Hahn befestigt, anerkannt gutes Centralfeuer-System — 110.00
„ Doppelflinte, bester türkischer Rosen-Damast, 1/3 der Lauflänge mit aufliegenden runden Schienen gearbeitet, mit ziselirten Hirschen auf den Schloßplatten, hochfeine Gravirung in grauer Härtung, Bascule à filet, massive Eisenschienen — 160.00
„ Neues System Remington (Doppelflinte, Hinterlader) mit bestem Bernardläufen, durchweg aus bestem Material in einfacher oder reicher Ausstattung gearbeitet, Kal. 12, 14 und 16 je nach Wahl. Diese Gewehre werden nur von sehr wenigen, und zwar den tüchtigsten Büchsenmachern angefertigt. Preis pro Stück inklusive Kiste und Verpackung, je nach der Ausstattung — 180 bis 280.00

English:

Centerfire Double-Barrel Shotguns (Breechloading – Lancaster).
16 gauge always in stock. Other gauges made to order.

Centerfire double-barrel shotgun with cast-steel barrels — 42 francs

Double-barrel shotgun with genuine Ribbon Damascus — 58 francs

Double-barrel shotgun with fine English ribbon barrels, double-key system, mottled finish — 60 francs

With fine Hufnägel-Damascus barrels [“horseshoe-nail Damascus”], Martin system, opened by means of a lever lying against the trigger guard, half-horn trigger guard, with hunting scenes or other engraving. Best gunmaker’s quality — 90 francs

Double-barrel shotgun, Garibaldi Damascus, English underlever beneath the trigger guard, English engraving, very well hardened, stock with matte oil finish — 95 francs

Double-barrel shotgun, Garibaldi Damascus, double-key action, English grey finish with various hunting scenes. Firing pin attached to the hammer; recognized good centerfire system — 110 francs

Double-barrel shotgun, best Turkish Rose Damascus, one third of the barrel length fitted with raised round ribs, with chiselled stags on the lockplates, very fine engraving with grey hardened finish, bascule à filet, massive iron ribs — 160 francs

New Remington system (double-barrel breechloader) with the best Bernard barrels, made throughout from the finest materials, in plain or elaborate finish, gauges 12, 14 and 16 as desired. These guns are made by only a very few, and indeed only the most skilled gunmakers. Price per gun, including case and packing, according to finish — 180 to 280 francs.

Have been searching without success for an example of Garibaldi Damascus

What about the term »Meiris-Damast-Läufen«¿¿

Great Fund by the way.
Probably the ONLY scanned Doc w/ Garibaldi-Damast in it¿
Serbus,

Raimey

OK, what about the correct term of »Moirée-Damast-Läufen«¿¿


Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Moire’ comes from the French mouaire (mohair) and is defined as “having a watered or wavelike pattern.” Moire (pronounced “mwar”) and moiré (pronounced “mwar-ay”) are now used somewhat interchangeably in English, though moire is more often used for the cloth and moiré for the pattern.

Percussion pistol



Modern Moire' damascus rifle barrel manufactured by Zbrojovka Brno



Moire' blade



Watered silk is a textile which has a moire pattern, a rippling illusory pattern created by lines which are superimposed on each other.

Ah, the Moirée Patterns one finds in Physics & Optiks....

Serbus,

Raimey

rse

Another interesting contemporary reference regarding Damascus barrel patterns:
Richard Mahrholdt, in his Handbuch für Waffenfreunde (Innsbruck, 1931), not only describes the manufacture of Damascus barrels but also illustrates several patterns: Banddamast (Ribbon Damascus), Hufnageldamast, Rosendamast, Bernarddamast and Laminettedamast.
He then lists the better grades as:
“Hufnagel-D., Rosen-D., Bernard-D., Crollé-D., Moiré- und Laminette-D.”
The particularly interesting part is what follows:
“Einfache Damastläufe wurden früher auch in Ferlach hergestellt, aber alle besseren kamen von Nessonvaux bei Lüttich.”
Translation:
“Simple Damascus barrels were formerly also made in Ferlach, but all the better ones came from Nessonvaux near Liège.”
So we now have Moiré, Hufnagel, Rose, Bernard, Crollé and Laminette Damascus explicitly documented together in a German-language firearms reference from 1931, with Nessonvaux identified as the source of the better-quality Damascus barrels.
Interestingly, Garibaldi Damascus is not mentioned by Mahrholdt, despite being clearly documented in the 1879 Liège Van der Straeten price list we found earlier. Perhaps Garibaldi was more of a Liège trade or commercial designation than a generally recognized pattern name by 1931 — but that remains only a hypothesis.
Source: Richard Mahrholdt, Handbuch für Waffenfreunde, Innsbruck, 1931, p. 18.

Mahrholdt Waffen-Lexikon



The damascus sample display in the Buchsenmacher u. Jagdmuseum of Ferlach, Austria is at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tXvObBOfgGpOKTh_jkttPcH1lKd--bfHY_sIjmr8uy8/edit?tab=t.0

Yes!

Wonder if Garibaldi Damascus might be related to this?

In jewelry design, the Garibaldi motif is a specialized chain link pattern. It is closely related to the Byzantine and Bismarck chain families but features a unique geometry: The Design consists of interlocking double-oval loops that are woven closely together. The links lie flat, creating a dense, wide, and heavily textured mesh appearance.

Interesting thought! The crucial question would be how far back the term “Garibaldi” for this particular chain pattern can actually be documented. Our Liège advertisement proves “Garibaldi-Damast” was already in use in 1879. If the jewelry term can also be traced back that far, this could become very interesting indeed.

Most interesting supposition. We recognize just why >>Bernard<< is included, as he was the Pinnacle of Perfektion when it came to pattern welded tubes, but why this unknown French-Italian Kat Garibaldi??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The Garibaldi jewelry motif originated as a form of "sentimental and political jewelry" during the heights of Garibaldimania in the 1860s and 1870s. The tightly interlocking, unbreakable chains carried powerful political symbolism.

Garibaldi mania was all over Europe in the 1860's-70's. Even women's fashion- red military cut blouses - were influenced by him: (Interesting fact is that Garibaldi was an Ardant mason and he used a lot of Masonic emblems on his personal items; the Catholic Church at this time automatically excommunicated Masons - Yet he installed Victor Emmanuel of Turino (then King of Piedmont-Sardinia) as the first King of Italy and as a catholic monarch in 1860.

Any Damascus would likely be a double chain design of some sort or another.

That certainly makes the Giuseppe Garibaldi connection much more plausible. What we still need is a contemporary 1860s/1870s source actually using the term “Garibaldi” for this particular chain pattern. If we can document that before or around 1879, the double-chain idea for Garibaldi Damascus would become very interesting indeed.

Here is what Google AI has to say. . .but this is written and thus needs to be checked; With voice AI you can argue with it, tell it to dig deeper - say it's wrong and go back to look again, etc: You'll see that AI is referencing this site extensively:

The Garibaldi pattern is a highly specific, rare style of pattern-welded Damascus gun barrel produced predominantly by German and Belgian master barrelsmithes during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Named in honor of the Italian general Giuseppe Garibaldi, this design features an intricate geometric aesthetic highly prized on premium European sporting shotguns.
[1] (https://northamericanoutdoors.org/what-is-a-damascus-barrel/),
[2] (http://www.culverart.com/Damascus%20Gun%20Barrels.htm),
[3] (https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home),
[4] (https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Board=9&main=49060&type=thread)🛠️

Production and Design: The Garibaldi pattern relies on a highly advanced variation of Crolle Damascus.
[1] (https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...amp;Board=2&main=540&type=thread)

The Composition: Alternating square rods of high-carbon steel and soft wrought iron are forge-welded into a single [censored - Hard Stop on oblique posting!] or billet.
[1] (https://www.scribd.com/document/800260518/Word-Damascus-Gun-Barrel-Patterns),
[2] (https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...amp;Board=2&main=540&type=thread)

The Twist: These rods are twisted tightly at alternating high-degree angles. When two or three of these opposing-twist rods are welded into a flat ribbon (riband) and wrapped around a central mandrel, they form the barrel tube.
[2] (https://www.scribd.com/document/800260518/Word-Damascus-Gun-Barrel-Patterns)

The Visual Texture: Once acid-etched, the Garibaldi pattern yields a distinctively dramatic, dark-and-light contrasting herringbone or chain-link structure. It alternates small, uniform "stars" or chevrons that spiral perfectly down the length of the barrel.
[2] (https://gunsmagazine.com/ammo/damascus-steel-barrels/),
[3] (https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...amp;Board=2&main=540&type=thread),
[4] (https://www.scribd.com/document/800260518/Word-Damascus-Gun-Barrel-Patterns)🇩🇪

The German Connection: While Liège, Belgium was the global epicenter for rough Damascus barrel forgings, the German gunmaking hubs of Suhl and Zella-Mehlis were famous for finishing these high-grade tubes.
[1] (https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home),
[2] (https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Board=9&main=49060&type=thread)

German makers often purchased specialized "Garibaldi" patterned rough sets from Belgium.Master mechanics meticulously bored, struck, and black-rust-browned them.You will often find Garibaldi patterns on high-end German firearms of the era, such as early Charles Daly imports, H.A. Lindner shotguns, and premium German drillings (three-barrel guns). They are usually stamped with early German imperial proof marks (such as the crown over "W" for choked barrels or "U" for inspection)

Follow up question to Google AI (which references Dr. Drew):

Can you find specific 19th century print references to Geribaldi pattern damascus?

Finding exact 19th-century print citations for specific named Damascus variations can be challenging, as pattern names often existed strictly within proprietary Belgian and German master smith pattern books rather than public trade catalogs. However, the period literature provides direct context for how "Garibaldi" emerged as a specific technical descriptor for firearms and high-end Damascus ironwork during the late 19th century.

The historical footprint of the Garibaldi pattern is preserved across several notable 19th-century resources:1. The Liège Damascus "Pattern Albums" (Late 19th Century)The most concrete historical proof of the pattern exists in the archival sales and design albums of the Vesdre valley barrel-forgers near Liège, Belgium (the global capital of pattern-welded tubes).

The Record: While not widely distributed commercial books, pattern-welding factories like Manufacture Liégeoise d’Armes à Feu and specialized barrelsmithes compiled internal sample books featuring acid-etched iron strips.

The Listing: The "Garibaldi" pattern is explicitly named in these albums alongside other culturally relevant design variations named after 19th-century figures or aesthetics (e.g., Bernard, Cachin, Washington, and Leclerc). It was classified under multi-rod premium Crolle Damascus.

The Legacy: Because Giuseppe Garibaldi was a massive global icon of the 1860s and 1870s, European makers capitalized on his fame. The complex chevron/herringbone weld pattern was named in his honor during the subsequent boom in high-grade Damascus sporting shotguns (1875–1895).
[1] (https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lo...-Third-Model-Dragoon-Percussion-Revolver),
[2] (https://www.tumblr.com/peashooter85/86646763602/the-damascus-shotgun-and-the-faux-damascus)

3. Definitive Modern Syntheses of 19th-Century Records: If you are looking for modern print analyses that directly compile, translate, and illustrate these original 19th-century German and Belgian factory designations, two authoritative texts are essential:"Damascus Barrels" by W. Greener & Major Sir Thomas Webley references: While classic 19th-century books like William Wellington Greener’s The Gun and Its Development (originally published 1881) group these under premium "Fine Crolle" or "Turkish" variants, they detail the exact mechanical process used to achieve the geometric chevron look.The Researches of Dr. Drew Hause (Double Gun Journal): The most exhaustive modern printing of these specific historical pattern variations can be found in the archives of The Double Gun Journal. Dr. Hause’s work directly translates original 19th-century Belgian and German barrel-making nomenclature, explicitly cataloging the Garibaldi variant with visual diagrams of its original rod structure.

Doctor - are you holding out on us? It says you have the proofs and receipts.

This is getting rather amusing. 😁 Google AI apparently knows exactly what Garibaldi Damascus looked like, how it was constructed – and even tells us that Drew has published diagrams of it. Meanwhile, the actual period sources we have found so far prove the NAME, but not the PATTERN. I think I’ll stick with the old-fashioned method: source, date, page. 😎

Evidence that AI doesn't quite get things correct

The best sources for identifying patterns are salesmen's sample boxes. Of course, the makers can name the pattern whatever they want, and frequently do. Illustrations aren't so good.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tXvObBOfgGpOKTh_jkttPcH1lKd--bfHY_sIjmr8uy8/edit?tab=t.0

And unfortunately, there are sample segments out there that have been separated from the box.

This is from a Joseph Juleinond box; Corche is on L and 3 Chain variants on R. None of the samples in the box however were labeled, and as said, I've never seen a pattern labeled Garibaldi.

Just curious, but what name did the Belgian or Ferlach mechanics attach to the Chain Pattern?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Mostly 'Chainette'

Another interesting sorta chain-like pattern. No idea as to the name
By Jean-Batiste Rivolier (1830-1907) et Fils à St. Etienne

Another period reference for Garibaldi Damascus – this time from 1881, and this one may actually tell us something about what the name meant.
Richard Brandeis, in his Die moderne Gewehrfabrikation: Praktisches Hand- und Lehrbuch für Büchsenmacher und Gewehrfabrikanten (1881), writes:
“Ausser diesen kommen dem Büchsenmacher auch noch andere verschiedene Damastbezeichnungen vor, z. B. Moiré damast, Garibaldidamast, Epheudamast und viele ähnliche, welche jedoch entweder eine der besagten Damastsorten oder nur eine unbedeutende Abweichung von derselben bezeichnen.”
Translation:
“Besides these, the gunsmith will encounter various other Damascus designations, e.g. Moiré Damascus, Garibaldi Damascus, Ivy Damascus and many similar names, which, however, either designate one of the previously mentioned types of Damascus or merely a minor variation thereof.”
This seems particularly important. As early as 1881, Brandeis clearly knew Garibaldidamast as a gunsmithing term, but apparently did not regard it as a fundamentally separate type of Damascus. He considered such names either alternative designations for established Damascus types or relatively minor variations of them.
This fits remarkably well with our 1879 Liège price list, where Garibaldi-Damast is offered commercially. We therefore now have two independent references only two years apart.
It may also explain why Garibaldi is absent from some of the later systematic lists and illustrations of Damascus patterns.
We still don't know what Garibaldi Damascus actually looked like – but Brandeis has brought us one step closer. 😎
Source: Richard Brandeis, Die moderne Gewehrfabrikation: Praktisches Hand- und Lehrbuch für Büchsenmacher und Gewehrfabrikanten, 1881.

Argghhh. Now we gotta find an example of "Ivy" damascus! Possibly damas lierre.

After reading Wolfie's Post, I had the same concern.......


Hochachtungsvoll

Raimey
rse

Sorry, but Brandeis makes it even worse… 😁

On the very same page he also mentions Alongé Damascus and Laubdamast (Damas à feuillages).

He describes Alongé Damascus as “elongated or drawn Damascus,” differing only slightly from Bernard Damascus, with the Bernard figures appearing somewhat elongated.

Then he writes of Laubdamast (Damas à feuillages) that it had appeared “in recent years” and was appreciated as a novelty.

And only after that comes our troublesome sentence mentioning Moiré Damascus, Garibaldi Damascus and Ivy Damascus.

So our list of things to find is getting longer rather than shorter. 😂

Brandeis 1881, p. 95.

Arrgghh indeed! 😎

And another one for the Damascus vocabulary… 😁

While searching for Garibaldi Damascus, I stumbled across this French description of an officer’s double-barrel percussion pistol, dated ca. 1840:

“double canon en acier damas moucheté et ruban”

So we can apparently add Damas moucheté — literally “spotted” or “speckled Damascus” — to our ever-growing list.

Brandeis would probably not have been surprised. 😂

Still no Garibaldi picture, of course… 😎

[url=And another one for the Damascus vocabulary… 😁

While searching for Garibaldi Damascus, I stumbled across this French description of an officer’s double-barrel percussion pistol, dated ca. 1840:

“double canon en acier damas moucheté et ruban”

So we can apparently add Damas moucheté — literally “spotted” or “speckled Damascus” — to our ever-growing list.

Brandeis would probably not have been surprised. 😂

Still no Garibaldi picture, of course… 😎


https://drouot.com/fr/l/34595151-pistolet-dofficier-a-double-canon-en-table-platine-a

Yer killin' me brother

Damas Mouchete’ or Fleuret (English “blossom”) typically refers to a Bernard pattern, especially “Rose Pattern” Bernard II.
There were several grades of Bernard. The Juleinond Bernard segments