doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1890 J P Sauer Sidelock transition gun?

Gentlemen,
Please see photos below re a ~1890 J P Sauer Sidelock
two barrel set : 16 X 16 and 16 X 11mm.
I am thinking that this is a transition gun from damascas barrels to fluid steel as it would have preceeded the Sauer 1892 patent utilizing dovetailed fluid (Krupp)barrels.
My questions:
1)what would be the likely source of the fluid steel 11mm barrel?
2) how would I go about sourcing ammunition for the rifle?
> is black powder necessary or can modern smokeless powders
and primers be used ( obviously much smaller volume)
with the appropriate brass/ bullets?
> do the barrel flats provide enough information for a custom
provider to supply ammunition, or would chamber slugs be
needed?
> are there custom ammo makers that could provide ammunition
( who?)
> what modern cartridge would the rifle's established
cartridge be comparable to ?
thanks!
best regards,
JBP

Short answer to all your questions - Yes.
Rifled caliber 11,15x60R known as .43 Mauser. BP ammo with lead patched bullet. Can be loaded with modern nitro-for-black powder.
Sure you could find ready to use ammo in US.
Nice gun btw

That's a mighty fine set there, JB! .43 Mauser is not tremendously difficult to find; one source for BP loaded ammo is Buffalo Arms ==> link here <== and another is Gad Custom Cartridge

Quality Cartridge also offers correct brass.

The 11,15x60R (.43) Mauser is pretty comparable to the US .45-70 and nearly identical in performance to the .43 Spanish/.44-77 Sharps. It's a great hunting round!

I believe the last commercially available smokeless .43 Mauser cartridges were the Canadian manufactured CIL Dominion brand, at least outside of Europe. I bought what will probably be a lifetime supply of them from another member here. They are still available on the internet auctions, but collector interest has driven the price too high to shoot them. I have bought and shot some of the Buffalo Arms black powder shells and also had the guy at GAD handload some smokeless for me. GAD is presently the cheapest way to go unless you want to get into reloading.

I'll second the opinion that .43 Mauser is a great medium size game round. You have a very nice Sauer...Geo

It may very well be an Sauer example from circa 1890, but the cocking indicators, horizontal rib, selfcocking stamp atop the tubes, Calibre(CAL: 181/182) all point to a 1892 production. The blade type indicators seem to appear in the 37k series. The early psuedo sidelocks still had the hammers in the frame. I can't really read the "CAL: ?" stamp and am curious if the other scattergun tubes have similar stamps. Usually the "CAL: 181 S" stamp is seen along with "BERN" and was exported to Switzerland or went to Switzerland via Eduard Kettner. Usually after the "592H" will be the initials "gKH" with the "g" being sort of a lowercase script. I'd say the pattern welded tubes were sourced from Belgium and the rifled tube is cast unless stamped otherwise. What type rifling does it have(Henry)? There are several variations within the 11.15X60 and unless a 11mm Mauser just drops in, and probably anyway, I'd make a chamber cast and slug the bore just to eliminate the variables. But extra effort and expense was dedicated to craftsmanship and pattering.
On the combo, what are the initials on the pattern welded tube next to the rib? Also, I've been chasing the "CRF"(???) stamp as seen on the rifled tube. I think it to be a large "C" with a "R" and "F" overlapping. Many times it is seen on the lower rib as well as on the tubes. Both sets wear a multiple/double "caveman" series. Nice find.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
your expertise is much appreciated!
There are 7 rifleing cuts with a slight convex " hump" between each slot. Is this the Henry style you reference?
I have attached a few more (larger format)photos for your review. Any additional information you could offer would be valuable.



best regards,
JBP

J.B.:
Let me study on the pics but all seem to bear "CAL: 18?". And the way it has been worked off it makes me wonder if Sl(Belgian) make the tubes? I had thought those with the "CAL: 181" "S Bern" acquired the "CAL:181" in Bern, Switzerland but this example may offer more questions than answers. I'm pretty sure that it was P.O. Haggards of Sweden that has a 1894 Bastman catalogue which has a very similar model with a very similar safety. And it was Haggards noting the "CAL: 181 BERN" as a Swiss import mark. For now I can't say but maybe the "CAL: 18?" was already there?? Sometimes the load data is on the tube. But interesting too how the serial number and stamps associated with Sauer have also been worked off. Take XX,XX16, underside of the right tube and it should read "Imperial Eagle"(Eagle of Justice-Cate), "Caveman with staff", "CAL:18?", "S" or "Sl" and then "gKH"(all possibly script).

It sounds like Henry rifling but can you correlate it with any diagrams from his U.S. of A. patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=kU5rAAA...;q=&f=false


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

JB - I have some .43 Mauser ammo I might part with. Send me a note at clayws@earthlink.net

I don't have SI as a Belgian trademark, however SL was Joseph Sarolea's mark until about 1892. Then it was registered by Syndicat Liegeois.

Raimey,

On the last picture, notice the script W on the damascus tube? I have never seen that one before.

Pete

PeteM:

It was Syndicat Liegeois, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20syndicat%20liegeois%20gb.htm , I was considering and trying to remember about what time they began. I think that mark to be a script "M" and to have been stamped from the other side like many initials. "M" is seen on many Sauer examples such as the other set of tubes. "Sl" is also seen on many sets of tubes which I think to have been sourced from Belgium. The lack of marks on the rifled tube is what sets me to pondering. Also, considering how all the marks are worn, at some point and possibly early on, an extra effort was applied to the set. But all the marks are there to indicate that the 2 tube set was completed at Sauer as well as extra effort was expended toward the pattern. Also note the same numbers and letters on the lower rib. Like many, the marks are quite the puzzle.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse