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Forums10
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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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JC, in some ways, your post raises more questions than it answers. For example: How did one acquire an Ideal? Did he have to go to St Etienne to buy it directly from Manufrance? Could they be ordered and delivered through the French postal system, or some other means? And did the practice of not selling Ideals through dealers continue throughout the gun's entire production history?
WildCattle, the French didn't use just one expression for smokeless. I've also seen "poudre vive" and, I believe, "poudre blanche". If you look at enough French barrel flats, you'll find that, outside of the required proofmarks, various manufacturers used a wide variety of proprietary marks and stampings relating to the powder, the steel, the chokes, etc.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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I think we still need to see the flats of a lunette Ideal that has smokeless proof stamps applied, by a proofhouse, before we know one way or the other. I sure haven't seen enough to draw any conclusion.
The Manufrance catalog was like the Sears catalog of the same era. I'm sure they would send you, by post, anything in it, just like Sears would.
Those were the days.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Well of course it really does't make any difference what powder is used for the proof. The proof house picks powders suitable for their purpose. "MANY" guns have been proofed over the years totally with black powder & marked with a "SMOKELESS" proof. This was quite often accomplished by giving the gun the regular "Black Powder" proof with a coarse grain BP to insure the major portion of the bbl was adequately proofed while an auxillary proof was fired with a Fine grained BP giving ample chamber pressure to insure it was safe to use with the normal smokeless powders for the chambered cartridge.
The important point is not what it was proofed "With" but what it was proofed "For".
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
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Armurier-boutiquier? Western Auto? French carries referential/connotational colorations for English speakers leading to alarming humour. I'm headed down to the gun boutique doesn't sound right.
jack
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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Lapin, according to my Larousse Grand Dictionnaire Français/Espagnol and then
from Español to English:
Boutique=Shop
Boutiquier=Shopkeeper
so,
Armurier-boutiquier="Gunshopkeeper".
We tend to think of "boutiques" as special shops, but... Also bear in mind I am
citing a 1890 catalague, so the language probably has had a bit of an evolution.
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance." Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,660 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,660 Likes: 7 |
Bonjour Larry, Could they be ordered and delivered through the French postal system, or some other means? As Ted points out, yes. And did the practice of not selling Ideals through dealers continue throughout the gun's entire production history? Je ne sais pas. But I am researching the issue and will get back on it. Bon 2010!!! JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance." Charles Darwin
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Quite right, JC. For the monolingual bumpkin, with or without extra "bucks", French on shops has its fascination. Curiously, the bread and the guns hold up to further scrutiny.
Have to think about Pipes' statement. Thought the words "progressive", "double and single base", "retardants", "explosive vs. propellant" and ball, tube and spaghettio shapes would have been of more importance? Apparently for the purpose of shotgun proof, bp of one granulation or another does it all or was presumed to do so by the proof houses.
jack
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,660 Likes: 7 |
Miller's assertion is right on I would say. They were proofing for a certain pressure
so what they used is not that important.
The first proofs were done according to the St. Etienne proof house's rules dating to
1866:
-For 12 bore: 10 grams of black powder and 70 grams of nº8 shot.
Later (1920) there were different levels of proof ranging from:
-First proof: 11grams of BPnº2 and 70grams of nº8 shot for 941 kg/cm2 pressure
-Finished barrels: 10grams BPnº2 and 60grams of nº8 shot for 791 kg/cm2 pressure
-Superior proof: 14,5grams BPnº2 and 75grams of nº8 shot for 1133 kg/cm2
-Double proof: 20grams BPnº2 and 120grams of nº8 shot for 1441 kg/cm2
-Triple proof: 30grams BPnº2 and 180 grams of nº8 shot for 1726 kg/cm2
The BPnº2 is called in French "Poudre Noire Forte Nº2.
The above for 12 bore.
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance." Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,660 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,660 Likes: 7 |
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance." Charles Darwin
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 61
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 61 |
Very interesting thread!!! Looking at old catalog, lunette Ideals were made only for black powder at first and then smokeless powder Ideals were marked "R". Ideals were not only sold by the "Manufacture Francaise". This is a (bad) copy of 1917 Rasetti´s catalog and they offered Ideals:  Also in old catalogs (1910) you can find that the "Manufacture Francaise" have representaives( is this the word?) around the word.  Martin
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