doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Frenchie Ideal thing....odd firing pin placement..

Obvious answer to that one, JC: It's French, and it just wasn't quirky enough with the normal triggers.

Patents mean nothing in this case. The question is what kind of Ideal was the first, with 'standart' or eyeglasses type of guard. In Jean Bretton book I can see eyeglasses/lunette, whatever, triggerguard was typical for Ideal at very beginning.

Interesting bit from Ted on t-guard corresponding to proof and making a big, unavoidable visual cue to permissible ammo. Anyone ever checked even a few examples who could add some wgt. to that idea? Sounds like the sort of rational but awkward choice a Frenchman would make. Surprising the Brits didn't also adopt the lunettes for some purpose which would irritate the French.

jack

Ted, with all due respect I do not think that the lunette is an indication of smokeless proofing.
The lunette was built until 1909. The first Nitro proof was made in 1897.
This is indicated by a "R" after the model number i.e. 4R.
R stands for "renforce" (reinforced action). Of course the proof marks will show this with the crown over PJ, PS, PM or PT.
Best regards,
WC

Black powder proof is available to this day at the proofhouse in St. Etienne. The only smokeless powder listed above is PT, powder PS is a semi-smokeless. Regular proof with smokeless began in 1900, but, it was/isn't the only level of proof available, even now.

I think we need to see the flats of some more guns before we can make the call. I was told the Lunettes guns were black powder only proofed by a French firearms dealer in Lyon. He didn't have any I could look at at the time.

A good friend owns a number 6 Ideal, I think, with a regular trigger guard, in 16 gauge. Wonderful gun that fits absolutely nobody who walks upright, and choked impossibly tight in either barrel.

Smokless proofed, however.


Best,
Ted

For the record, 33,551 "eyeglass" guns were made until 1909*. I wouldn't think they were all for black powder and all proofed by a dealer.

It is my understanding that Idéals were all sold directly by Manufrance. No dealers, to
keep the prices down (à la Galazan). The guns were subjected to terribly unjustified
revues due to this in their beginnings.

JC

* Le fusil de chasse "IDEAL" by J-C Mournetas-Editions du Pecari

Ted, I would beg to differ.
The French equivalent to Nitro is "Poudre Pyroxylee".
My 1900 "Manufacture francaise d'armes de St Etienne" clearly puts the J, S, R, T, M & BN powders in that category.
The 1910 catalog also says that the S powder produces the highest pressure and therefore all R models are proofed with it.
The Proof mark is Crown over P.X. (X=J, S, T, etc.) for the Nitro powders and crown over F or S for the black powder guns, S being superior proof. Are you confused yet?

The "R" addendum disappeared in 1925 simply because almost nobody used exclusively Black powder at that point, and therefore, every gun was really an R.

The GB gun is one of 2008 built in 1900 (source:Mournetas).

As far as the chokes, standard French chokes are 1/2 and Full.

If anybody knows of an Ideal double rifle (they were made in a bunch of calibers from .303 to 450NE), please let me know!

Happy New Year!
WC-

I believe the Lyons dealer did the telling but none of the proofing, JC. And of course, he (and others like him) may have done none of the dealing, but that doesn't prove that what Ted isn't saying is false. Or something like that.

jack

Lapin,

Of course it does -or doesn't?

JC

Again, for the record:



You don't need to speak French to understand what it says concerning distribution.

It also confirms that the Idéals were slandered by the gun dealers that couldn't sell them.

JC