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Forums10
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Jun 14th, 2026
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
Actually two 100% identical M. I don't see any reason Sauer&Son oredered tubes from the outside. S&S was one of the biggest gun and barrels maker at the time. One more pre-1912 Sauer gun. 
Geno.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
Geno:
I agree that the tube craftsmen worked at Sauer. But easily one of the aforementioned fellas could have worked at Sauer depending on the magnitude of orders at the time. Sauer made mainly Krupp tubes and I am curious if any other type steel tubes bear the stamp of the caveman with a club? It is possible that only the bigger concerns kept a serial number ledger and it wasn't until October of 1928 when a new gun law forced all makers to keep a serial number ledger, which I think could be inspected. Production of military weapons during WWI really established the connections for sourcing.
The stamps of the caveman with a club on the flats just may indicate assembly at the Sauer plant. I see what looks to be a "M" on the inside of the left tube, of course the script "MM" on the lower rib and what looks to be a "KW" on the right tube. I don't think "M" was for mechanic but was the initial of the craftsman at Sauer, possible in an apprentice/journeyman program?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 896 Likes: 50
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 896 Likes: 50 |
Raimey,
re your barrel length question.
combo barrels : 16 ga X 43 mauser ( bullet from clayws fits perfectly) : 73.5 cm
16 X 16 shotgun barrels: 70.2 cm
any significance ?
barrels definately not cut.
best regards,
JBP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
J.B.P.:
I was just curious if the tube lengths were closer to metric or English integer dimensions. Is there crosshatching at the ends?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
Mr. Robert Emery of Pittsboro, NC has Sauer no. 437XX as a DR and he converts 0.348" Winchester to fit his need. I think he turns about 0.10" off the rim. His with Henry rifling in some sort of cast tubes has very similar marks with the "g9g9" on the lower rib as well as the "T" on the flats. That lowercase script "g" is interesting in that one sees that all over the early Sauers. I'm waiting to confirm if it carries a "Crown" over "V" or any proofmarks, but up until now I don't think it wears any. And on the right rifled tube, I don't think that lone "caveman with a staff" is a quaility mark but is akin to the lone "caveman with a staff" marks seen on the flats of Sauer assembled/fitted doubles. It just may indicate that Sauer finished the tube but the accompanying encircled "CRF" monogram mark could be the hammerforge. Kind Regards, Raimey
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
The above pic of the tubes carries the "CHRK"(?) monogram, maybe with or without the "H" and the imprint can also be seen on the rib where it is also found, where it looks to be worked off. May the Klett's forged the cast tube as well as the lower rib and Sauer finished them. I don't think it to be a Belgian monogarm like the "Sl" on the pattern welded tubes. Maybe the "M" on the pattern welded tube is for mechanic?????
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
 I think this example give some insight as both tubes were sourced in the rough and then finished by Sauer denoted by the Imperial Eagle and Barbarian(Caveman with a staff). Neither of the tubes were made at the Sauer plant. Then there are 2 quality stamps of a caveman with a club(unless he had to fit the tube twice) as well as the crowns and a sequence of Imperial Eagle, Caveman with a club and crowned S&S(Sauer & Sohn early mark). By the way, Mr. Emery's example appears to have the Piper chamber/stepdown:  Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
I failed to mention that the "Papp" is for a cardboard(waxed??) cartridge. Does Rottweil RWS/GECO still manufacture their cardboard cartridge?
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
Sauer double 45960 was "on-hand" or "in stock" in early 1893:  Anyone think the initials next to the backwards "K" are "EJ"?  Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,959 Likes: 560 |
I've long searched for the explanation for the Bern stamp and even though it may not be a typical Bernard pattern I am all but positive, well positive, that the stamp is: CAL: 18.1 S BERN Where the 18.1, 18.2, etc. is the measured diameter. I am also very confident that these pattern welded tubes were sourced from Liege.  Sauer Hammergun with large and small crowns and DAMR  Sauer Hammergun with 18.2 S BERN 115 on each tube Dr. McPhail has a new 8 bore acquisition with PP that I might need to add to this thread. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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