doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Interesting hammer German 16

No, it's not mine, but what are the markings on the sides of the chambers?

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9521922&oh=216543

2 grams of blackpowder
28.3 grams of lead (about an ounce shot load)

With kind regards,
Jani

Interesting "R.S." in an oval beside an F.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't know what his intent was on stating Munchen Krupp Essen, but Miller & Valentin Greiss were in München but the band on the tube steel should read "Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen". Also the forend looks to be a snap version and to have been modified??


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'd call the 2 g Sch P mark as two grams of Schultze Pulver, an early smokeless. Two grams comes out to about 30.8 grains, about right for Schultze but not for black.

The problem with separating the two types of powder in German is that both begin with sch: schwartz for black and Schultze for the early smokeless developed by him. Black powder is typically marked in German proofs as S.P.

One dram = 27.34 grains

One gram = 15.4 grains

One dram = 1.78 grams or so

Usual 16 gauge black powder charge is in the range of 2-1/2 drams, which works out to somewhere in the neighborhood of 4,4 grams.

Drams, grams, grains, it's enough to make anybody crazy!

For those interested. Raimey has written in some detail about Miller & Valentin.

http://www.damascus-barrels.com/German_Research/

Pete

Steve,
Thanks for correcting me about the powder type; my fingers were too fast, my head too slow... Schultze sounds just right.
With kind regards,
Jani

Hello Jani,

I know what you mean - sometimes I can't even remember which hand my fingers are attached to. I also learn something from you (and Raimey!)every time you post here, thanks!

Steve

Thanks Steven, but I too glean info from your posts and would be really challenged for info on Austrian/Bohemian/German longarms had it not been for the effort of you and others on the board of directors of the GGCA with Mr. Dietrich Apel at the helm. My hat's always off to you and the GGCA core team that holds the effort together as well as installs the infrastructure for the continual quest for A/B/German info, and yes that includes Georgi, Petrov, etc.(everyone else I've missed).

And Jani always provides insight.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have a 1907 drilling 16-16-8x58R which has that same load marking on the sides of the shot bbls except accompanied by the early nitro mark ie a crown over N. I too have always taken this as 2 grams of Schultz powder. Schultz was a bulk smokeless powder which originated in Germany but became highly popular in England as well & also the US. It was classified as a 42 grain powder that is a 3 dram measure of it weighed 42 grains. This 2 gram load then wouls correspond to a 2.2 dram measure, a little lighter than normal for a 1oz 16ga load, which as Steve said was normally 2½ drams. I can't really verify it but have read in the past that German law prior to 1912 made no distinction in proof charges for black & smokeless, ie percentage increase, not actual wts. This it was said resulted in a gun given a smokeless proof being submitted to a very excessive charge. Most makers didn't submit their guns for the "supplemental" smokeless proof, but if one was sumitted at a customer's request a lighter than normal load was specified to keep the proof charge to a lower level.
In 1912 the rules were changed regarding the charge & smokeless proof became mandatory as I recall.