doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Merkel Question

Hi Guys!
I was looking at Champlain Arms website and they were selling an older Merkel and they said it was better than the "New Crap".
They seemed to suggest that the innards of the newer Merkels have been changed, (not for the better, obviously). Anyone know what they are talking about???

I think they are perhaps speaking of the fact that the new Merkel's no longer have the extra lug (guess you call it a lug) that was part of the bottom of the barrels that fit into the rectangular cut in the bottom of the receiver. I believe they quit doing that about ten years ago, because it took more time for the necessary hand fitting/milling required to put the gun together. If you look on some websites and search for Merkel's and look at the bottom of the receiver's, you will see what I'm referring to. The other thing perhaps Champlain is referring to is most real knowledgeable folks think the Merkel's made after the Russian's took over Eastern Germany are not what they were before. Some folks think any Merkel marked GDR (German Democratic Republic) on the barrels is inferior. Anyway, I'm guessing folks more knowledgeable then me will jump in with their two cents.

I have been told that there were around 3000 workers at the factory during the GDR era. There was a infusion of Western money and technoligy after the wall came down and there are now around 300 workers. I would not call the latest guns crap but the internals don't have the hand polishing of the GDR guns in my opinion.

I agree with what mark said and will add to it that the new stuff often cast, not forged then machined.

During the GDR era, Sauers and Simsons were made in the same plant as Merkels. That might be one reason why they needed more workers. And being good Commies, they didn't have much incentive to work any harder than the guy next to them. Expect the current facility also uses CAD/CAM technology, which was not around back then.

I have a 20g. GDR Merkel. I think it's a better gun than the newer ones. The importer at the time told me that this particular gun was a special request for a light weight and consequently came in at 5 lbs. 13 ozs. Maybe they spent a little more time on it but I've never seen better fitting on any gun. Also of course the action design was changed on the later guns. It became longer and the internals were also changed. Merkel naturally said the change was to improve the design. Usual BS. It was really done for ease of manufacture, an improvement in their minds maybe.

"The Legend" was built on what the Merkel offerings used to be. Suffice it to say, that going back decade, by decade, the quality was, in general, better. 50's guns, better than 1960's etc.
The Merkel Company folded when the wall came down. Labor put together a deal- attempted to re-open and begin production again. Due to any real management, that failed. Some time later, management put a deal together; that never made it off the ground- labor would not cooperate.

The Merkel name was sold. At that very point in time, Merkels, those upon which the Legend was built, did not exist except in past times.

Though they legally posses the right to be called Merkel, any subsequent offerings are merely inferior look-likes. The Merkel name sold again. Still any current offerings are grossly inferior look-likes.

It's not that Champlain seems to suggest.... They have put the truth out there on the guns marketed under the Merkel name these days. Among the cognoscenti there is no disagreement on that.

If anyone wants a good Merkel, don't buy one any later than the 1960's.

Well I guess I have to sell my early nineties Merkels now that they are crap.Seriously though,I compared my 1992 201e to a few 1950`s guns,and except for the Boehler barrel,its the same gun.
Maybe there is a markup for that sense of hand fit dirty apron romance under the Weimar republic.I never seen a machining mark on a Merkel.
The scrollwork is the same,more if it on the older guns .
They all are tight,seem shot very little.

IIRC,Colt and Winchester passed hands a few times also,I cant say the older guns were any better without the use of cnc technologies.
In fact the Browning Japan copies are far superior.

I agree, I think that Miroku can beat the Belgians

Perhaps all the owners of Japanese Brownings and recent Merkel offerings would sense or hold the opinion they are better.

Well I will have to add one for the other side,the Belgian Superposed is far better fit and finish then the bowling ball,jam the forend on, Japan made Citori.That said there is place for each in the collecting hunting world.

I also like the prewar Merkel's better,the guns from the 50's are second best.
here is a neat youtube video of the current Merkel factory.(CNC,laser cut checkering...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27RdPDPl2gg

"Perhaps all the owners of Japanese Brownings and recent Merkel offerings would sense or hold the opinion they are better."

Actually I am always searching for that Weimar Merkel Gebruder because of the romance, current replacement values [at my price of course]and I like to tell people how old it is.
But finding one without some flaw,you pay dearly.
I passed on a sidelock 1956 gun because it had a crack behind the lock,and worn out checkering for 4k.
The 300 series prewar o/u boxlock had all the locking you could ever brag about[ a plus -add to above],but its overkill [look at kreighoff/perazzi/beretta locking].
If Merkel remade the 300 series TODAY,it would be a vastly superior gun to the old 300 [read metalurgy].
The nut you would have to come up with for that new 300 would put you into FAmars territory.
It also a question of the specific gun you are looking at.
Ive seen GDR guns identical to 50`s guns,and Ive seen GDR guns that were no better than Boitos.

Thanks Dave K for the video. I saw them doing lazer and hand chckering, I wonder which model gets lazered,or hand checkered?
In regards to the Browning comment, I was at lunch and only had a short time to write, so I will elaborate:
In The Summer 2000 issue of Double Gun Journal, An article David McKay Brown appeared. When asked who his competition was, David didn't say, Purdey, Holland, etc. He said his stiffest competition was Browning and Beretta. They both have proven designs that are superbly reliable. As far as hand made guns, I have bought three Grulla and two went back because of defects in the barrels. I also read an article in Shooting Sportsman about a FAMARS Pigeon Gun's forend becoming stuck when the gun heated up when being shot. After these experiences, I have come to believe that I would rather have a computer do the machiningand regulating, and a human do the engraving and final finish work On a Production Browning, or Beretta the engraving and stock leave much to be desired, However I did a custom Citori a couple of years ago and it turned out fantastic. One can also do this with a Beretta through Cole Custom Guns. My point is, as a mechanism, Miroku has a super product, made to tight specs.

You mean maybe 30's guns? 50's guns were GDR guns.

Thanks to all those who participated!

Off the top of my head I can't remember when exactly Merkel brought out the current O/U model but if you have one it certainly is not the same gun as the earlier model. The receiver is longer and the firing mechanism is different. Whether better or worse is a matter of opinion.

The German Government used to subsidize labor costs to the tune of 50%.
When the wall came down, that stopped. Suddenly, the Merkel guns- those upon which The Merkel legend was built cost the company ...twice as much.
That was the major reason they folded.
One attempt after another failed to resurrect the old Merkel company, so... the name and rights were sold. A couple of times.

Current offerings under the name "Merkel" are a mere resemblance of the older Merkels. There is no comparison in the quality. Quality is inherent. The old ones had it, thus, became a Legend. The new ones pale Greatly in comparison, coming the closest, only in general appearance.
I suspect those who would consider that to be a matter of opinion, may be biased in their opinion because they own a newer offering. But quality is inherent, not a matter of opinion.
Those which are earlier are a silk purse, current offerings, just a mere resemblance.

Actually, the subsidy made little difference under the old East German regime--at least for buyers in the United States--because we slapped a heavy duty on anything coming from Commieland.

Hi Guys,
I have just purchased a Merkel 47e and I would like to know how to age the gun? It is a gdr gun and I traded for it. Any help will be appreciated. New at the Game.

Ron

The article is probably referring to the action changes made after reunification. Flat spring to coil, etc.
I would consider Merkel's to be of 3 types. Pre-WWll, Communist era, and post unification.
There are plenty of differences denoted to bracket the guns this way. I don't remember if the articles were by Doug Tate or Clair Kofoed, but they were in SSM, around 2004.
I looked at a 1950's, 303? that had excellent deep relief engraving. But I was saddened that the firing pin holes were so whopped out that it was a firing pin eater. The remedy was bushing, but I was told then that the geometry of the strikers on that model routinely ate away the holes in the breech face. Something to think about in O/U's.

The date of manufacture is on the barrel flats ex: 12/69. Look, you'll see it.

For a few years now Merkel has been owned by a high finance outfit from Dubai-as their royal family wants to have some other strings to their bow when the oil runs out.
They have about 100 arab workers at any one time under tuition in Suhl on basic gunsmithing on a rotating system who then go back to Dubai to help with the start-up of their own arms industry (they make a pistol there which was CAD designed in Suhl by the Merkel designers).
There are two types of Merkel gun now made 1. the old hand fitted way and 2. the modern CNC semi autos and straight pull rifles for hunting in the German fashion, drives etc.
This all came out of a new book published by Merkel and lent to me by a German gundealer last week.
The Gunsmithing school in Suhl is flourishing still by the way so I would not think the new stuff is crap by any means.
I just have a Q1 from 1960 OU shotgun so I have no axe to grind here, just passing on that which I know to be fact.
Martin