doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Resurrection of the Lefever

Given the talent on this bbs, I think a guild composed of members here could get this gun project done.

Chuck is on to something here...theres no reason why it couldnt be done, as a "guild" gun....KISS!

The barrels are the problem....it is hard to produce a good set of tubes for reasonable money. You could sell a lot of guns at 2,500$, but you could not turn a profit. The action is pretty simple really, especially with modern machinery, but there is not easy solution for the tubes. Ruger found this out the hard way. It is the same reason that rebarreling a gun is so painfully expensive....It takes lots of work from a very skilled set of hands and there are no short cuts. I wish the reality was different, but it is not.
Steve

Frankly, I think the $2500 target is just someone's personal allowance for a gun and it's unrealistic for this type of project.

For a finished gun from such an ensemble of craftsmen, a target of $10-15k would be realistic in my opinion. And I would say that would be a non-engraved gun. The goal isn't to make as cheap a gun as possible. It's to make a fine as gun as possible of the same design as the Lefever. Anything less and it would be a total waste of everyone's time. I don't think anyone that had a skill to contribute would have any asperations of competing with Huglu.

CSM is selling just barrels for approx $2k. That would be a safe baseline for barrels for a this project. I believe he may be outsourcing those barrels. I'd find out, and contract them, if possible.

A good piece of wood costs $500-1500. Even the labor for a machined stock with final hand fitting and checkering has to be a $1000 bill minimum. Another $2-3k on the gun depending on wood quality.

Now the hard part, the action. Just the machine time, not counting setup, tooling costs, programming, designing/tolerancing, reverse engineering, or whathaveyou...I'd estimate you'd not find a shop that would do it (for a legitimate job) for less than $1k, for just machining the frame. No guts, no forend. I'm talking numbers like 50 pieces. You want 100, 200, 500, 1000 you get different prices. The guts and forend are probably easily as much as the frame in machining costs. So, say $2k for a pile of parts that don't fit yet, are not polished or blued/casehardened. If a guy spent 10-15 hrs fitting and finishing, call it another $500-1000 (this is one of the skills we seem to all judge critically, so you'd want it well done)

I count about $8k above and thats without recouping any non-recurring costs from startup. Many 10s of thousands would be spent in getting this project off the ground, if wages were being paid for that, even menial wages.

Just as a note if one does a side x side comparsion of early production Lefevers (thumb push & side pivot) vs late model Lefevers (Two hook & single hook) it becomes "Extremely Obvious" that those early guns had far more "Adjustable" features than later ones. There is not a single adjustment on a later large hook gun which was not present on a thumb push, but the reverse is not true.
As to the bolting it is noted the bolting on a Lefever is placed at max distance from the hinge so excellat mechanical advantage ls obtained. On thumb push, side pivot & early two hook guns the bolt entered the rib notch from the rear & these guns had a screw through the top tang which adjusted the bolt downard for wear. With the introduction of the central pivot lever the bolt was attached as an extension of the lever & rotated into the notch from the left side. The lower (bolting) surface of these guns is cut on a 15° angle & are thus self compensating with the lever coming further around to adjust for wear. It is I think worth noting the ball hinge should only be adjusted if necessary to take up its own wear. The main forces on a break open gun are in line with the bore axis which tends to spring the standing breech back from the bbls. Both Dan Lefever & W W Greener stated that an ordinary break action dbl could be fired with no dire consequences with the bolt/s completently removed & the gun kept shut by the action of wrapping ones thumb over the bbl breech. The square shoulders of the Lefever Doll's Head are a quite effective metrhod of adding support to the top of the breech to offset this flexing action of the standing breech. If the ball screw is adjusted in order to bring the lever back to center the bbls are pushed back & consequently up as they contact the standing breech earlier thus losing a lot of the contact of those shoulders in their socket. As long as the bbls are seated properly against the standing breech & the gun is securely bolted the position of the top lever is purely cosmetic, it should be allowed to come around for its intended purpose.
I might note I have an H "Parts" gun which has a crack in the left bbl (twist) very pitted bores & appears to have had much use. The ball screw had been moved when I got it. On a lark I completely removed it & re-assembled the gun. The Doll's Head & Bolt combined snugged the bbls & breech together quite tight with the lever just left of center with a lot of wear still left in the bolt. With the forend than snapped on there was virtually no detectable movement unless enough upward pressure was exerted on the bbl to raise them from the bar. "IF" I tighten the ball screw enough to bring the top lever to right of center there is then a visable gap between the shoulders of the Doll's Head & the mating frame shoulders. Overall a very effective design I think if used appropriatly.

Just my opinion of 'dollshead' designs in general, but IMO, they are a limitation for fitting or adjusting barrels and provide little value other than asthetics. Now where's that football helmet we used to have around here?

Miller, pretty good stuff. Thanks

Miller, that is a good explanation, the first time I have heard that. I have a 16 E Grade that apparently has done exactly what your described when the ball was adjusted. The doll's head fit great before the ball was turned. Now it is a bit high. I am going to take a fresh look at that gun and see if I can find a ball position that allows the gun to be tight when bolted, but with perfect doll's head position. I did not do the ball adjustment myself because I could not break it loose. I sent it to a skilled double gunsmith to break it loose and he did the unsatisfactory adjustment. Apparently he is not familiar with the phenomenon you mention. By the way, after more than 50 years of fooling with Lefevers, this 16 was the first adjusting ball that defied my efforts. Bill Murphy

Chuck;
For the Doll's Head to be effective it has to be amply constructed & properly fitted. The square shoulders developed by Dan Lefever were in my opinion a great step forward for a doll's head. It then becomes in principal just like a T-Bolt in a milling machine table. It will slide freely down the slot, but when the nut is tightened if enough fore is applied you can pull the bolt in two but the head will still be in the slot. Likewise in closing a gun the doll's head swings freely into its recess, but when the axial thrust thrust is applied it adds support to the top of the standing breech, lessening the springing back of same. This is the same purpose for which W W Greener developed his cross bolt. Also in designing the rotary bolt Alexander Brown envisioned, & so stated in his patent, it being fitted to "Both" hold the bbls down & also to hold the breech "Up To" the bbls. Apparently after Brown left this "Dual Purpose" was not much adhered to, the rear surface not being fitted which reduced its effectiveness to no more than the flat bolt of a Lefever, Baker or 311 Stevens. Only the Lefever though incorporated the doll's Head. The forward face of the rear lug of a double underlug (lump) if properly fitted will take virtually all the strain from the hinge pin in absorbing the axial thrust, but add nothing to the standing breech. Enough off-face guns abound to attest most are not that well fitted. Good design & proper workmanship produced some superb guns long before such alloys as 4140 etc were readily available to the Gunmaker.
It is of course readily admitted that many guns have been built relying solely upon adequate integrity of the frame itself to contain all forces applied upon it & have sucessfully done so.
I did once consider, but never got it done, removing the ball screw from that above mentioned H grade parts gun & strapping it into the Firestone "Bench Rest" & firing off a load via a long cord & see if that doll's head was amply strong to take the whole nine yards of a regular shell.

Bill, did your gunsmith perhaps tell you what he had to do to break the compensating ball threads loose? I had trouble with one on a D. M. Lefever crossbolt. I soaked it with penetrating oil and forgot about it for a couple months and was then able to move it. Another one on an I grade has given me fits. It does not appear to be rusted in the least. I have tried Tasgon, PB Blaster, StrongArm, Kroil, and Rotanium penetrating oils giving each at least a week or more to work. Tried tapping with a brass rod and heating the screw with a copper soldering iron. Broke one screwdriver tip and one impact driver bit and thankfully did not bugger the slot or scratch the knuckle area. May have swore a little bit too. Nothing works. It's not like I can drill it out and just buy another one from Brownells. Right now it's been soaking in 50-50 ATF and acetone for a couple weeks.