doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com # 10 shot for Grouse??

All of the above (O'Connor; Sell; Zutz et al) had a certain decided mystery/windbag factor to their writing. Sufficient time has passed and technology has advanced to the point where we are now reading empirical findings (e.g., Sherman Bell, Tom Roster and Bob Brister) backed up by enhanced educational status of the authors way beyond the "me and Uncle Fred" delivery of stories brought back from the field by their predecessors. No. 10 and 11 shot were indeed the choice of experienced railbird hunters, who counter-intuitively used the most open choke they could find for this very fine shot. The result was a pattern at 25 yds. that resembled more of a shadow than an image of individual shot holes on a paper. They knew what others only guessed at: dense, uniform patterns of tiny shot virtually blanketed the game without tearing the flesh to pieces, essentially guaranteeing a kill from multiple hits on the quarry.

Jack, that is the very point I am making. If I am in the grouse woods and get a "road point" at 3:30 PM on a slow day, am I going to refuse the shot because the bird takes wing at 33 yards? Of course not, and I don't want any #9 shot in my gun when I pull the trigger.

I would not use #9 (nor #10) even in October. I suppose #9s would get their share of WC, but I'd pass up all shots at grouse.

Coupla thoughts on ruffed: they are not tenacious but they often do not react much, if at all, to a solid hit. It is also very easy to walk past a dead grouse - good dog, bad dog, or no dog.

Second, there are indeed longish grouse opportunities - for those with the patience not to discharge both barrels too quickly. This finally clicked when I thought about how many times I was able to follow a pre-season flushed grouse for quite aways, in and out of tree cover, when I had no gun. Over the years I've learned that patience pays off, and that a fairly tight 2nd barrel with some choke attached to a two-trigger frame will work well. But now we're into #7.5 territory.

Sam

The book mentioned in my post was "Hitting vs Missing With the Shotgun" by S.T. Hammond copyright 1898.
Several of you seem to think that He was shooting the grouse close up, an the ground. If you read the book you will see that this is not the case.
From the pages of the book: "The charges that I have used for many years in a 12-gauge seven pound cylinder bored gun, with entirely satisfactory results are, for the right barrel-wich I nearly always use first-three drams of good black powder with five-eights of an ounce of No.10 shot, and for the left barrel the same amount of powder with seven-eighths of an ounce of No. 8 shot. These charges give good penetration and pattern, while the recoil is scarcely noticeable....
Many cylinder bored guns will do good work with these charges...
I was once shooting quail in North Carolina with my friend Harry Reade, when his shells gave out and I handed him some loaded with No.8 as above described, but he could do nothing with them, missing one-half of his birds, while those that he hit were so badly torn that they wereworthless. I then gave him some loaded with No. 10, and with them he did some excellent work, killing eight or ten without a miss, and so well did he like them that he declared that he would use no other charge.
(He mentioned here that he was shooting quail but in most of the book he is using the load on grouse.)........
"You should bear in mind that the barrel you use first should make a well spread, even pattern at twenty yards, as in nearly all your shooting-in cover at least-your birds will be from fifteen to twenty-five yards away when shot at, and that from five to ten yards further will usually cover the distance for the second barrel."
The conditions of his shooting seems to be the same as today.
but I can't see why he uses No.10 shot.
I use 7 1/2 for grouse.
Pete

Come on, Pete, the fellow Mr. Hammond states that his friend couldn't hit a thing with his #8 loads, and tore up the birds he did manage to hit, but when he got hold of some #10 shot loads, he was a candidate for the Olympic Gold Medal in skeet. He declared that he would no longer shoot anything but #10 shot. What a crock of BS. Those who support the use of a certain gun, choke, or shot size to the exclusion of all others have not yet learned to shoot a shotgun. They are spending way too much time reading Field and Stream and way too little time shooting a shotgun. Nothing has changed since Mr. Hammond wrote his little piece. The same thing goes on today on shotgun chat rooms. "I can shoot this but I can't shoot that." The truth is that they can't shoot anything.

I don't know if this improved his shooting or not, I just wanted to show that he did use the load of No. 10s on flying birds.
I wonder if the No.10 was the same size as our modern No.10?

I don't know precisely when shot sizes were standarized with the choice being that of Tateham & Bros shot tower of New York. On this chart #10 (Drop) shot ran 848/oz. From a shot tower chart in an 1892 Lefever Arms co catalog depending upon the tower #10 could run from 822/oz to 1130/oz. There were 9 towers listed with #10 running between 822-874 for 6 of them 950 for 1, 981 for 1 & the 1130 for "Merchants Shot Tower Co, NY". Of the 9 towers 4 were from NY, 1 PA, 1 MO, 1 IO, 1 CA & 1 IL.
For the Tateham system whole sizes vary by .010" With #B being .170". Taking 17 & subtracting size as decimal will give the shot dia , thus .17 - .06 = .110" dia for #6 shot, .17- .075 gives .095 for #7½ & .17 - .10 = .07" for #10 etc. This also works going up except you have to remember the exact order of the steps. Above b there is BB, BBB, T, TT, F, FF & then #4 Buck. Above #4 buck they no longer follow these .010" steps.

I think that todays No.10 shot runs about 880 to the ounce.
Not much different
I am surprised that small a shot would kill grouse at 20 yards.
Pete

I hunt Grouse up there in Mr. Hoggson's country and it makes a big diffrence what time of the season it is. Early when the leaves are on the trees if you are able to get a charge in the air with a Grouse centered in the pattern it won't matter what you throw at him he is comming down. The shot will be well within 20 yds. Later when the leaves are off the trees you can get some pretty long shots. I hunt with a 28" 12ga with spreaders(1oz 7 1/2's) wich has worked out well for me. I also don't hunt with a dog. It has been my experience that some years the grouse flush far and I can put the spreaders aside. I stopped the use of 8's after losing birds that I knocked feathers off of or knocked down and could not find. 10's for Grouse in his day was probably a way to save money on shot and I don't doubt that it would kill them at the short ranges of the early season but I wouldn't try it. In fact I may start trying some non tox shot at grouse to get ahead of the lead shot bans for hunting uplands as was discussed in a previous post. I've also started to hunt with some small gauge guns to gain confidence with them before really old age sets in.

I have to take the time to get out a hardy laugh when reading talk from a bunch of guys, hailing from outside the low country, even taking the time to talk about using certain shot on Rail.
Fellows !!! It matters not what one uses to bring down this slow, dumb, ugly and evil tasting target !!! The shot used is the shooter's choice as this bird is simply a hard won live target. Hard won by the guy that poles the boat !!!
Tearing up the meat is not of moment, for anyone that would eat one would eat a buzzard in cooking wine sauce.
Three day old road kill would taste better.
Best,
John
PS----I think that 7 1/2s are fine for Ruffs.