doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Please Help Me Identify

Can anyone help me identify this old percussion double gun? I suspect it of German origin and circa 1850s and intended for big game hunting. From researching here, I also believe it is known as a "Buchsflinte." I have also seen such guns refered to as a "Zweiling." I have linked photos of my gun below.

I thought it unusual for the stock carving of what might best be described as a gothic looking bat-winged mammal (deer or perhaps boar). Also interesting is that it has a both a smooth bore (right) and deeply rifled bore (left). I will not attempt a guess at the caliber but both barrels appear to have the same caliber and are only somewhat smaller than a 12ga (a dime will not fit). The barrels also appear to be of wire twist construction (something I was not aware was done on rifle barrels).

All major parts are serial (or assembly) numbered 22. On the underside of the barrel there is a proof mark and the number 58 in an oval. The proof mark looks like a crown over two downward pointing crossed sabers.

The quality of manufacture appears to be fairly good (although this particular specimen has seen years of abuse and is now only suitable for wall decoration). However, belying the apparent care lavished in the manufacture of this weapon, I can find no indication of who manufactured this old double.


Gun:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0198.jpg

Bores:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0203.jpg

Proof Mark:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0200.jpg

Stock Carving:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0194.jpg

Zweiling refers to double barreled; Zwei is two. Buchsflinte probably refers to rifle shotgun because I believe that pflinte is an archaic term for a shotgun. In modern english a rifle shotgun combination is usually called a cape gun.
The proof mark is puzzling; looks British and yet the gun is certainly either Belgian or German. The circle 58 is also baffling to me because for those areas it should be metric and somewhere between 16 and 18 (mm) from your description. Possibly an unproofed german gun imported into England and proofed there.
Just my speculation anyhow.

cheers Doug

I think age makes it difficult. The crown looks Prussian, but I can't find the crossed sabers in any of my references. However, they do not begin until 1861.

Pete

I saw a sxs built by the Wilmot Gun Company with a very similar stock carving on a table at a small gun show in Bristol, PA, yesterday.

Could the 58 be the nominal caliber of the rifle barrel?

Doug and Pete-

Thanks so much for joining me in my head scratching! The lack of maker's mark made me wonder if this might not have been of domestic (American) manufacture. However the numbering of the locks to the barrel seem to indicate some organization, and the carving work looks very Germanic. Maybe made by a German immigrant? I had hoped that the proof mark would catch someone's eye as one they recognized. Looks like this old gun may remain a mystery.

Doug

Remington40x-

I don't have a ready way to measure the caliber, but it looks like it could be very close to a .58. I'll see about getting a ruler and measure it (I am presently away from home on business...where I recently purchased this gun at a gun show).

Doug

Looks like Gun Barrelmakers Company from 1813, which covered all of England and Whales. The crossed scepters where used by a gunmaker of Ketland and selected as the proof marks. the left side of the cross is a B, the right side a C, and the bottom of the cross a P. It was also used by the Gunmakers Company proof facility in Goodmans Field, Whitechapel,London where it still stands. The barrels could have been made in England and sent to Germany. These are the only Proofs i have seen that has any resemblence.

RdShow-

English barrels would make the gun more interesting, but the date of production if that early, is more interesting still (as it would make it one of the earlier percussion ignition). The stock carving does look very German to me. I can take some pictures of the locks, but as I recall there is little clue on them, but to a more seasoned eye, perhaps they can help folks who are trying to help me figure out the where, who and when pertaining to this old gun's make.

The crossed scepters was a private proof until the BPC was added. The letter v was added at the bottom of the crosses to serve as inspection mark. This mark remained in force until 1904. In 1875 the London proof house changed its proof mark but the Birmingham proof house maintained the crossed scepters. I believe your bbls. are Birmingham proofed.

The proof marks are not British. These marks look like crossed swords, not sceptres. Note that there was no mark at the 6 o'clock position where the letter "P" would have been. Also, there is no view mark present, which was always used in conjunction with the Definitive Proof mark. The "58" would certainly seem to indicate caliber, but the British did not begin marking bore size (marked between the Definitive Proof and View marks) until 1855. I don't think this piece is that recent. Also, bore size was marked in gauge, not caliber, until 1887. Likewise, unless this piece was later converted from flint, I don't think it's old enough to have been proved privately in Britain prior to 1813.