doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 1/2" chambers and 1" cones

HoJo must be away killing something, or he would step in and sort this all out.....

Your right, Terry, killing is second me, just came back from 10 fallen Russian agents butchering. It was thought to swap them all for one Larry again... Let's live so far.

Joe, Russian humor is one of the best in this d*mn world. But I have to appologise for Le Fuzzil anyway.

Well, what we got now? You still break your vintage guns or voice of reason took some effect?

Well Doug . . . good for you, and we should all shoot what we want to shoot. And, I should add, KNOW to be safe.

I just ran an interesting test. Went to my supply of factory 20ga shells, picked out a Gamebore "Traditional Game" load in a 2 1/2" case (so marked on the box; marked 65MM on the hull), as well as an Estate standard 2 3/4" shell. When fired, the Gamebore actually measures 2 9/16", and the Estate less than 1/16" more (under 2 5/8"). Since the information on the Gamebore box gives me the proof data for that shell (850 bars), and since it's a one ounce load, are you suggesting that if I reload the Estate, with 7/8 oz of shot, to a service pressure well below that acceptable in a standard CIP proof (850 bar) gun, that I'm doing something dangerous? In fact, it's almost certain that the pressure--and clearly the recoil, given that the Gamebore is a 1 ounce load--will be less in my reload than in the factory shell. And please note, the Gamebore is CIP-approved--which means that's not Brown talking, nor just the British Proof House talking, but ALL those countries that are part of the CIP. Which would be all of Europe.

Obviously, the European proof houses don't need to "hear from me". They've already approved shells longer than the length of the chamber for use in guns they've tested--per my recent experiment.

I don't happen to have either a German or a Belgian 2 1/2" gun handy at present, Doug. However, I have fired thousands of shells in British 12's and 16's, chambered 2 1/2", with factory cones, without damaging the standard American hulls I reloaded for those guns. Obviously, being an observant type, if I'd been blowing the ends off my shells, I would have stopped what I was doing.

As for the availability of 2.5" cases . . . in fact, as you know very well Doug, they are NOT available in the vast majority of places shells are sold in the US. 2 3/4" is our standard, and that's what our target ammo (our very best hulls) come in. Since I don't need to bother trimming those hulls, or buying 2.5" hulls, the question is not why shouldn't I do it, but rather . . . WHY SHOULD I DO IT?

And if you only shoot the "correct" ammunition in your guns . . . THEN HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THAT 2.5" HULLS LAST LONGER THAN 2.75" HULLS? Inquiring minds would like to know. Sounds to me like there's a contradiction somewhere in your "evidence".

As for the patterning thing, I have "evidence" in the form of an article from The American Rifleman in the 1930's, written by a man with long experience in the American gun industry (since the 1890's). Back then, some of the top trapshooters were in fact INTENTIONALLY shooting factory ammo longer than the chamber length in question. Why? Because, through testing, they had found that the longer shells in the shorter chambers gave BETTER patterns, not worse ones. That, of course, had to do with the paper cases opening into the cone, as mentioned earlier--which does not apply today. But why would patterns be worse due to the extra case length, if they weren't in the past? And how would you know, since you tell us you only shoot "correct" ammunition in the guns in question? I have patterned both British shells and my own 2 3/4" reloads in British 2 1/2" guns, and have gotten very good patterns from both. And I certainly have not observed that my patterns from 2 3/4" shells were inferior to those from the factory ammo.

And the tests to which Burrard and Thomas both referred . . . those were conducted with FACTORY AMMO, 2 3/4" shells especially loaded to be fired in guns with either 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" shells. Eley would not have made them and so marked them, had the proof house not approved of the practice.

As for the bozos shooting high power 2 3/4" shells in short-chambered guns . . . again, both Burrard and Thomas were quite clear about the danger of that practice. And stated--as I did in my previous post--that it's not the length of the shell that gets you into trouble (if it's only 1/4" longer or less--almost always less), but rather what the factory put in the shell to start with. Reloading standard American hulls to appropriately low pressures is a very different thing than running out and buying American 1 1/2 oz 12ga loads in 2 3/4" hulls and stuffing them in short-chambered guns. One would have to be a real bozo, for sure, to do that.

What are the "pressure signs" with a shotgun cat'ridge ?

Unfortunatly you'll able to recognise high pressure signs on cartrige only when pressure is high allready.
There is one more thought that not so many guns with original bores and cones left in US today.
How many guns with step cones did all of you see?
As I remember I saw only 2 guns and both were made for brass shells exlusively.

[quote=L. Brown]
And if you only shoot the "correct" ammunition in your guns . . . THEN HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THAT 2.5" HULLS LAST LONGER THAN 2.75" HULLS? Inquiring minds would like to know. Sounds to me like there's a contradiction somewhere in your "evidence".[quote]
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Larry:

For a writer, it appears that you do not comprehend what is written......or you don't read everything....?.....

In a previous post on this thread I mentioned that I had shot quite a few 2.75" Remington Nitro Gold hulls loaded with my pet load.........and gun for gun these hulls (which are one of the best as you note)....did not last past 4-5 reloadings, burning and cracking at the case mouths..............in the same post I mentioned that the 2.5" hulls last at or over 20 loadings with the same pet load in 2.75" chambers, gun for gun..........ON PAGE TWO FOR YOUR REFERENCE...........

I think we have beat this horse to death.....I wish you the best in your testing, shooting, hunting, writing and so forth........

Geno, keep sending us those spies. We'll keep catching them and sending them back to you guys. Of course it's bad when you don't have any Americans to trade us in return. Maybe you'll have to start arresting them again, for evil crimes like selling bluejeans on the black market.

As for original bores and cones, Geno . . . in view of the fact that the shotgun industry was way more active in this country than in yours, I don't think there's any shortage of guns here in original condition. It is unfortunately true that quite a few have been lengthened to 2 3/4", but far from all of them. As for lengthening cones, that does not even impact proof status under CIP rules, and if it permits someone to shoot more modern shells in old guns, why not do it? Makes sense to me. Some claim that it both improves patterns and reduces felt recoil.

Doug, sorry . . . this has been a long thread. More recently you were bragging about only using the "correct" ammunition. Guess you were for it before you were against it.

And over 20 loadings from your cases? Maybe they're brass or something, or else we're doing new math here, I'm thinking. Multiplication perhaps, instead of addition. I doubt many folks would claim 20+ loadings from 2 3/4" hulls in 2 3/4" chambers. Or in 3" or 3 1/2" chambers. I certainly would not, even with STS/Gold Medal/AA etc. Must be some magic there the rest of us are missing.

Sorry, again you are not reading and comprehending Larry....here, for your easy review........

The Nitro Gold 2.75 " were tried in 2.5" chambers...just to clarify..........the mouths cracked and were burned as they folded partially out into the cones........every one.....rounds reloaded and fired numerous times for a total of about 500....maximum on some were 5 loadings....some less.....

Plastic residue formed in the bore from the shot wad as it was forced through the cone with part of the hull already there, excessive plastic in my opinion.....what it did to pressure, who knows...........I discontinued the experiment permanently and forever...........

No Larry, I have NEVER been in favor of shooting long hulls in short chambers, just tried it as mentioned above.......

The 20 loadings per hull are 2.5" cases in 2.75" chambers.....

I don't even load 2.75" anymore in any gauge.....if I need a heavy load for my Baretta's I use factory ammo, I still have several cases of Eley Grand Prix's which are not available in the states anymore...........

And Yes, there is some magic always........and my weird unique loading techniques........

Well Doug, you've simply had different experiences than most of us. Somehow, I'm thinking that all of us--and, on this BB, we are pretty numerous--who have been shooting long shells in short chambers for a very long time, would have stopped long ago if we'd had the same problems you report. And if we heard of guys getting 20+ reloads out of short hulls, we might have switched anyhow.

I think you need to write a magazine article on your reloading techniques if you're consistently doing that well. I have a 3" 20ga in which I NEVER shoot 3" shells, but I sure as heck don't get 20 reloads out of my 2 3/4" shells, using the best target hulls out there. Nor do I do noticeably better than when shooting 2 3/4" hulls in 2 3/4" chambers, or in 2 1/2" chambers.

Oh crap! Lets face it Larry, you're just damn hard on shotgun shells. That's gotta be the problem.
Steve