doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 1/2" chambers and 1" cones

Stan:

Sent you a PM..........

Best,

All were plastic hulls, all star crimped. Especially if the shot is enclosed in a plastic wad, I don't see how a bit of the case mouth extending into the cone could hurt the pattern. I certainly haven't tested enough to say conclusively that all (or even most) 2 3/4" hulls in short chambers will produce superior patterns to short shells; just reporting some examples I have from my patterning data.

Personally, I don't believe tighter necessarily = better, where patterns are concerned. For example, I was testing those loads at 25 yards. At that range, which is a fairly typical shot for me at pheasants or prairie grouse over my pointing dogs, I don't want a tight pattern. In fact, I've always used that particular Federal Gold Medal reload (with Unique) in only the tight barrel of my doubles--where I do want a tighter pattern.

I hate to ruin this thread, but after reading 8 pages I've come to feel like I should ask "but now what?".

Here is a scenario that is probably common for the readers so let me pose it and see if I can get a response that is short, friendly and to the point.

The facts:

1. I own a nice old 2 9/16" chambered 16 bore
2. The gun I own is quality steel and is NOT damascus
3. I have zero desire to reload
4. Polywad and RST special order 2.5" shells are not always available.

The question:

Be Reasonable! Can someone please list the maker names and types of ammo that are 2.75" that are light enough that I can shoot them in my gun?

When I go into Cabelas or a rural gunshop, what 2.75" ammunition do I purchase before I go shoot clays in my family's back yard with this gun?

How do I know a "safe" or "good" light 2.75" load that is appropriate for a 75-100 year old shotgun in good working order?

Thanks for your response. Sorry if I ruined the academic nature of the conversation by just asking for the short and sweet answer.

The short/sweet answer (at least for me) is to shoot the 2-3/4" Winchester Super-X (silver box) shells, especially those manufactured in Australia (need to read the small print, but at this point I don't bother). Come only in 1 oz. loads, only #8 and #6, usually available at K-Mart, among other places. Lots of guys on the SSM BBS who shoot old 16's like this shell. It is my preferred shell for everything from my Parker VHE 16 to my Smith Ideal 16 to my short-chambered Win Mod 12 16. Cycles fine in the old Mod 12, no ejection problems. It is noticeably softer shooting than similar (promo and field) loads from Fed and Rem.

B&P also makes a nice light/short load for 16's, but you can't buy them at K-Mart.

You don't and you won't.........I don't think a 16 ga 7/8 oz. load is out there.....?.......Except RST/PW........

If you have zero desire to reload, it is my opinion that you need to order your 2.5" ammo by the case and keep on hand RST or Polywad for that nice old gun.............or other 2.5" ammo.......

I would not advise 'Wally World" off the shelf ammo in that gun, of course, others here will disagree.......

The big ammunition factories change their loadings as they see fit to fill the market's need, so you never know what you are buying for that old gun with consistency ..............

What's wrong with thinking ahead........?...........Planning ahead.........?...........Buying ahead.........?....

Doug,

Not to sound like a smartass here, but thinking and planning ahead is easier said than done. A slice of being realistic has to be factored in.

Loading guns into the car for a 15 hour trip with a full family and luggage takes a miracle of planning and squeezing in every last item. Finally in God's country we go out back and shoot a bit of trap and the amount we shoot varies. Sometimes its a little, sometimes a lot. I'd never know how much to bring or how much to leave for next time.

On other occasions I have to fly 1000 miles via Chicago, O'hare or Chicago, Midway. Bringing the gun is a nightmare, but I do it. Bringing a case of ammunition is a huge surcharge and a nightmare.

Then there is the cost basis of paying the hazardous shipping charges to ship in Polywad or RST to Illinois.

Then there is the issue that nobody wants to mail ammunition to me in Illinois because of our damn gun laws.

I appreciate the desire to protect our guns from abuse, but I also know there has to be a quality 2.75" light load shell out there I could find and use safely if I was trained on what to look for. I'm sure there is a list of shells to avoid entirely as well but I haven't heard them mentioned by name.

Has anyone thought of creating a small document that lists many of the common shotgun shells and their documented pressures for the gun community?

Rookhawk:

16's are not common anyway, so wherever "out there" is....there is probably not off the shelf 16 ammo available.....heck, most Walmarts don't even have 16's with any consistency.....

Pressures on even the low grade 16 Remington Target loads 2.75" (dove and quail as well) are too much for the old guns IMO............

Maybe you should just take an old 12 with you where ammo is more common........or a modern 12 for that matter and knock yourself out.......?..........

Lot's of folks do ship ammo ahead to their destination, but yes, they pay the hazmat fee.......just the way the 'new' world is...........and you live in one of the worst states for 2A stuff that exists..........

Good Luck,

Doug,

When I'm out and about in my travels I typically end up in "boutique" type gun stores. An example would be, tomorrow, I'm heading to Manchester, Vermont to visit family and enjoy a bit of shooting. Manchester is the world HQ for Orvis and they have a pretty decent amount of fine shotguns ranging in price from $2000-$200,000.

What Orvis doesn't have, is 2.5" ammo. They will gladly sell you a Belgian Browning Midas Grade for $50,000 or several LC Smiths, Purdeys, Holland & Holland and Parkers.

What these types of stores do seem to have is obscure brands of shotgun shells, albeit they are still 2.75".

I see a lot of Fiocchi, Eley, Sellier & Bellott and Golden Pheasant at these places. Are any of these European brands known to be gentler on old guns? Or do these places just enjoy selling you a $50,000 vintage shotgun and modern shells that will destroy it in a few weeks? Is it possible to identify a particular obscure brand of 2.75" shell and know, "that is a legitimate, low pressure target load"?

Also, I'm really shafted here in Illinois because when I hunt pheasant on state land I have to use non-toxic shot (e.g. bismuth). How on earth am I going to find 16 gauge low pressure, non-toxic shot in 2.5" shells?

Old guns are beautiful...yet annoying.

Rookhawk:

They "are not" annoying if YOU RELOAD........

Fiocchi, Eley, B & P and others are generally 'heavy field' loads, especially if they say 'golden pheasant'........and will help destroy your old double in short order.........read the amount of shot and dram equivalent of powder.....

I probably have 15 cases of Eley Grand Prix's and V.I.P.'s in 12, 16 and 20, but I only use them in modern O/U's as they are very heavy field loads ......and I also stock some 2 5/8" F-2 Classic B & P's in 16 which are also heavy field loads as well, 1280 fps +......for old auto's with 2 9/16" chambers........they shoot good in an old 1929 - 2 9/16" chambered Browning A-5 16 that I have, which will not eject any 2 3/4" ammo.........but way too stiff for the old doubles IMO....

The answer to all your other questions really only has one answer regarding your dilemma, reload..............or pay some local buddy/friend/reloader to do it for you......

Yes, but you have to ask. I wanted a low pressure, readily available dove load for my Brit and Parker 12 ga hammer Damascus guns, one with 2-5/8" chambers and one with chambers stretched to 2-3/4". Settled on Fiocchi training loads, 2-3/4", 7/8 oz, #8, 6600psi confirmed by Fiocchi. About $7/box on sale and usually available at my local purveyor of target ammo.

I used to reload, but don't anymore. I also used to shoot only 12 gauge, but now am shooting everything from 2-1/2" .410 to 3-1/2" 12 ga goose loads, depending on the occasion. I don't have the space, time, or inclination to load for everything I shoot. Maybe when I retire, but then will probably reload only for .410, 28 ga, and short low-pressure loads for some of my goofball old guns.