doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What ammunition is a .725 bore 12 designed for?

Not quite. You hone out 10 points and leave the choke intact, what was improved cyl. is now modified. I believe I misconstrued your take on my 54 points of constriction. What you "always say" isn't quite to the point either. Very easy to determine absolute "choke size" (ID at muzzle exit) with something as simple as a slide caliper. Should read "you can't know relative constriction (and nominal choke) unless you know bore size). Example: bore (as in my Ideal): .721". choke exit: .667". Viola: 54 points/mils/thous constriction. The fact that I read it off a bore mic zeroed to bore diameter is simply my favored "easy read" technique. I do agree that the turned brass "ringsizer" type choke gauges are worthless.

jack

If any guns on this planet have a reputation for having had more honing and polishing of bores, after the fact, than English guns, I'd sure like to know about it.

jOe, do you ever post anything intelligent? THINK, for Chissakes, would you?

Stan, I own a Darne that has suffered a massive backbore and choke relief job at some point in it's life, and, I agree, plastic wads seem to be very forgiving when going up from standard, but, at just slightly under standard, they are being left behind by good old horsehair. I don't know if that is typical. Maybe it is.

As an aside, some of the best patterning loads that I have found for the Darne are Eley SuperGame loads, which don't have a felt wad, but, a plastic one of some sort. Very consistant patterns, better than any of the typical store bought loaded in USofA loads I've tried, IN THIS GUN. Felt wad loads, or anything of low pressure quality, always throw inferior patterns in this particular gun. The plus is that super cheapie promo loads seem to work just fine for typical clays shooting or grouse hunting in the Darne. I haven't had the nerve to try them on bigger roosters.

Lapin, not sure why the usual Bozos on site expect their guns to pattern the same with different loads and components, and expect mine or your's to do the same, but, they clearly do. That said, in at least one case, the plastic shot cup isn't living up to it's reputation.

I'll pass on whatever I can discover.


Best,
Ted

Post some pictures of the patterns.....in the mean time start a fire Wonko and I'll bring the wild game.

A few years ago, I made a half-organized attempt to find out what Pattern Control post wads would produce in the way of patterns from the usual mod-full combination in damascus barrels. I think I loaded Nitro 100 and small shot, probably 9s so I could keep pressures low and have a LOT of pellets to count. To some of the post wads I added a 5/8"-long chunk of Tygon tubing slipped on to the post (Bill Murphy's idea). I think there were a few ClayBuster 1100-12s in there as a control. All loads were an ounce of shot and I made up the difference in volume in the straight post wad (it's an 1 1/8oz wad same as the Red PC) with puffed wheat. No large (6 or better) shot so wouldn't have had much to say about hunting loads but I thought it would tell me something about the effectiveness of the post in producing wider patterns from tight chokes and maybe I'd see the infamous "donut hole" from the loads with the CB wad. Two of the guns were Lefevers (bores were around .732" or greater) and the other a very heavy-barreled Syracuse Hollenbeck and I've forgotten how it was bored but wasn't under the American standard .729". One of the Lefevers was ic/mod; the other two guns IIRC were the usual 25/40 points constriction give or take. I didn't see the "donut" from either of the wads or the modified "super-spreader," Tygon-enhanced wad. About all I found out was that the spreader wads did produce wider patterns and took some pellets out of the core as against the non-spreader CB. None of the guns ruptured or showed any sign they couldn't deal with a quick 6200psi.

I've promised myself that I'd run some sort of fiber wad test on this Merkel (38 and 45 points choke) ever since I've had it (and before I get it opened) and the thinking behind this parallels Ted's in the original question: Euroguns with tight bores (.719") of a certain age (in this case late 50s) ought to have some logical connection to wad material with a limited obturational effectiveness available at the time of manufacture of the gun. I know the slight overbores in the Lefevers, produced (1902) in the era of fiber wadding and bp, appear to give this the lie, but it's still the conjecture I'm operating from. I think I'll try the over-the-counter Eleys as I'd like to know what this gun (as is) is supposed to do with shot in the #6,5,4 range. Have to find a plastic wad&shotcup load for comparison I think. I'm curious if there's a mylar sleeve or tube in those Gamebores? I'd hate to think that all I'll be doing is getting shot deformation from setback and barrel scrub. I guess the real questions for me are two: 1) Will the gun produce even distribution of shot from fiber loads superior to that from plastic wadded?, 2) What components for a spreader load producing good-looking result from same gun?

jack

The answer to your question is "NO". Absolutely not. The last 50 years or so of ammunition production w/ plastic wads clearly demonstrate that they are superior in terms of improved patterns relative to bare lead as well as every other factor that a wad needs to address.
You, of course, are perfectly free to hold whatever opinions you choose no matter how erroneous or deluded they may be.

Dr.WtS

PS - Stuck wads have nothing to do with bore size or wad type. I suggest utilizing the proper quantity of gunpowder as a simple and universal solution.

In answer to your postscriptive advice to the misguided among me, Wonko, bore size does have one tiny thing to do with stuck plastic wads. It is more probable that one will stick in a .723 bore than in say a .742 bore. Primer alone is frequently sufficient to cause wad and shot to exit the bore of an overbored target gun and frequently not sufficient to do so in a sub-.729 bore. Obviously, lack of propellant force to overcome inertia is the major cause; perhaps less obviously insufficient propellant force to overcome a tight fit of wad to bore. Friction also contributes to sticktion. If this ain't so, I welcome correction but in the meantime will follow most excellent advice and put powder in at least some of my shells.

jack

Not to be tooo critical, Rabbit, but what you say is just fooking stupid. Who GAF about whether a primer will get the wad out of the bore?
Glad you picked up on the using the powder suggestion. Works for me.

Dr.WtS

PS - one thing I really like about this BBS is the constant reminders of just how intelligent, informed, congenial, helpful, and good looking I am. Thanks, folks.

Oh no, can't worm your way into my good graces that easy, Wonk! A good first effort tho! Keep punchin, maybe you'll land one?

jack

If there is anything dangerous about certain bore sizes, it is an overbored gun that will let a separated hull extend past the forcing cone. You can hear a primer only report and examine your bore. You can't hear a separated hull.

How the hell did we deviate into stuck wads? Is that what your doctorate is in, Wonk?

Dr. Wad? I like it. Since you are so good looking, maybe that quiet time I suggested with you and jOe would be, er, good for the both of you? Some of it might rub off on him, hopefully. Ever seen a picture of him? We have grocery stores he would be arrested at, simply for pressing his nose against the glass.

That advice is as good as anything coming from your end of the planet.

Look, anyone can tell me how superb a plastic wad is, and on certain days of the week, with certain other guns, I'm completely in agreement, but, at least with one 3", tightly bored and tightly choked Spanish double, 'taint happening. Limited application, but, the 10 or 12 different US spec plastic shotcup rounds I tried are throwing pretty ho-hum, donut hole, ragged patterns. I likely will end up opening the chokes, but, I would like to know the answer to this puzzle before I do.

Too tight chokes? Too tight bores? Too much pressure in either? Weird dynamics in 3" chambers with 2 3/4" SAAMI spec ammunition? Help me here.

I will keep trying different plastic wad ammunition, but, those CIP spec pressure felt wad Eley's do answer the question, without giving me any information.

I need Roster, but, I've got homeless jOe, and his moronic commentary.

Lucky me.


Best,
Ted