doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Advice: French MAC Side by Side 16ga

Revdocdrew-

Thank you so much for the wealth of information. I have never fired, much less owned a 16ga. So the idea of adding one to the "stable" is appealing to me and I really like doubles. If I shouldn't use the standard 2 3/4" shells, that may be deal killer on this one. Although from the thread you sent, it appears that some 16ga shooters are comfortable using the longer shells in short chambers, so long as the shot payload is modest. That is along the same line as the Fox shooters (myself included) who are comfortable using 1 oz 2 3/4" shells in their 2 5/8" Philly guns as this has been done for years. However, I thought that the 2 1/2" chambered 16ga using a 1oz load in 2 3/4" shells, might be pushing things a bit. So I will check chamber length (to see if it is 65 or 70) and to see if it was double proofed. If a 70 (I think unlikely) or double proofed (more likely), then I will give it a go today with the 2 3/4" 1oz loads I bought for today. If it is 65 or not double proofed, then I will have to decide if I want this "plane Jane" 16ga bad enough to feed it at the rate of +$75 per case. Per box, the Pollywad isn't too bad considering that's about what I paid for a box of 12ga Federal paper target yesterday.

The point about the chokes is very well taken. After checking the price lists, I am certain I don't want to spend the money on this particular shotgun to lengthen chambers or open up chokes. So if I decide to shoot it today I find it too tightly choked, I will likely pass.

The shotgun isn't anything fancy and I don't know if I am ready to take up shotgun reloading (after my last move 6 years ago, I got real lazy and just started buying factory loads (have yet to set up my Dillon for my cartridge guns!).

Thanks everyone-

Doug

Postoak-

I could not have asked for more than to hear from someone who owns a MAC! Thanks for taking the time to respond. The MAC did impress me as being very well made in terms of fit(but as you say utility in finish), nice handling and light.

I am pretty sure that the gun I am looking at is blued. If a 70mm chamber, like yours I am very inclined to buy it. Your shotgun sounds like a workhorse with both the 70mm chambers and the double proof! The MAC I am considering did have some wear and tear to the wood (real nasty ding as I recall on the fore end). If this gun follows me home today (I still have to do some last minute coordination of the shoot today), you all will see some pictures.

Doug

I will locate some of mine, and post them also, welcome to the French Gun Club ! You can't own just one.

Happy to help, esp. another potential 16er
Just thought I'd add this (which is what Ted said):

The Winter 2001 Double Gun Journal has the article by Sherman Bell called "Finding Out for Myself" Part V "Long Shells in Short Chambers".

After extensive testing carried out in a very professional manner he concludes:

"With loads that are sensible in a light 21/2 inch gun, we see no dangerous pressure levels produced. I see no reason, related to safety, to modify an original 2 1/2 inch chambered gun to shoot 2 3/4 shells, If The 2 3/4 Inch Load You Intend To Use Would Develop Pressure That Is Safe In That Gun, When Fired In A Standard Chamber!

I have one of these and my impression is that although it is a bit crude it is fairly well made the one I have has double nitro proofs (15,600psi)which is pretty stiff, it also has 65mm chambers. It has 26 3/4" barrels and weighs over 6 1/2 lbs, so it is not a featherweight. About the numbers stamped on the stock; as I recall there were some of these guns offered by the large surplus gun dealers in the 1970s or so. I would guess there was a connection to the military, maybe like our special services, for recreation of military personnel?? Another thing that is interesting is that 65mm is 2,55904" and 2 9/16 is 2.5625, not a whole lot of difference. Besides the MAC I have 3 Robust 16ga guns and a Verney Carron 12ga that exhibit very good quality. My opinion is that French made guns are a sleeper for someone wanting a gun to shoot. Jim

With 16ga shooters, especially those new to the gauge, it isn't so much an obsession to shoot heavy loads in a light gun as it is the nonavailability (other than via UPS, or at an unusually well-stocked gunshop) of anything lighter than the "promo" 1 oz loads from Win/Fed/Rem--which are not all that light, because American ammo makers turn them out hot enough to make autoloaders cycle.

As pointed out above, it's not the length of the shell that causes problems--it's the service pressure to which the shell is loaded. In the case of a French double in good shape, however, pressure isn't likely to be an issue as far as damaging the gun. But the American "promo" loads will really punish the shooter when run through a light 16.

As you can tell from the title of this post, things might have gone better today with the MAC. Sparing all the suspense, I ended up buying a broken gun. Why you might ask, well, it was a friend selling it and he had never fired the shotgun. I put 75 rounds through it without any problems (a bit stiff to open with the Federal due to firing pin drag, but it loved the Winchester). After much fun with it, after taking the photographs, another friend closed the action and dry fired it and the right hammer pin broke. He doesn’t even realize he did this and I am not going to say anything (if not him, I would have likely done it). I hope there is some way to get this fixed without spending a whole lot of money, but I fear what with no surplus of MAC shotgun parts out there, such will not be the case. So, in sum, you might say a friend broke my friend’s gun, so I bought my friend’s gun.

Now brushing off the fact that it is now a single barrel shotgun, and I am not entirely convinced of the robustness of this particular French side by side, here are the particulars.

It does have 2 ½” chambers. I did elect to shoot the 1oz load when I saw the double proofs. The action was tight (it will hold the cellophane wrapper of a CD) and before shooting I tightened all the screws. The shotgun was very comfortable to shoot with these loads and recoil was moderate if not pleasant. The shotgun fit me very well and I was hitting with good regularity. I am not sure how to read the choke markings, but the gun did not appear to be over tight in the chokes (so they may have been opened up by a previous owner). I really enjoyed shooting this gun and I would like to get it working again. I am wondering if perhaps the broken hammer might be repaired or modified to take a Smith and Wesson type hammer pin. If a part has to be made, I would expect it to be a pricey prospect (unless some gunsmith was feeling charitable towards me and the old gun). If anyone has had a similar repair done quickly and cheaply, I would appreciate it if you would kindly share the contact information for who did the work for you.

As promised here are the photographs:



Barrel markings:



Note: The oval proof is the Paris house. The N.A. with proof mark is for a non-assembled proof of the barrel. The second proof indicates the proof of the finished gun.

I thought this interesting, a serial number on the stock:



Here is the broken pin (I got into the action, easy enough by the way, I found this part, confirming my worst fears):

Sorry the way things worked out Doug. Let us know part of the country are you from and we might be able to recomend a doublegun specialty smith near you.

Where I live, good question! I am a Homeland Security employee currently on detail to an old stomping ground and living out of a hotel for about 5 more months(Rio Grande Valley, TX). My home is in Aurora, IL. I can easily get the action out of the stock (in fact I did so already to pick out the broken pin) and ship only the action if anyone thinks that would help (and it would be a lot easier on me).

Not exactly the way I wanted to end the day, but this stuff happens- seems to be happening a lot to me lately.

Doug

A firing pin should not be too difficult to have fabricated, particularly since you have both parts. The original was likely too hard and while that may have prevented any premature wear on its nose also set it up to fail like it did. A good smith should be able to make another pin for you and also do a better job of getting the correct draw on the hardness, so that is is not a recurrent problem. Odds are good that it would have broken from normal use anyway, so consider yourself lucky to get that sorted out now and not having it happen in the field. If you do not have anyone near where you are, Kirk Merrington can affect the repair for you and do it correctly and he will give you an estimate before he begins the work.

edit: Kirk is in Kerrville, TX.