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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 227
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 227 |
Hello All-
I need some advice. Tomorrow I am going to shoot a friend's French MAC (Manufacture d'Armes de Châtellerault) 16 ga. He has never shot it and wants to sell it. I may purchase it if I like it. I have some concerns however. I handled the shotgun several weeks ago and as I recall it is in very good condition, very tight and I would say the metal work wears 90% or better original finish. Nothing fancy, but it impressed me as light and well made.
The shotgun has the characteristic sling swivels. Somewhat unique, the butt stock has a large serial number stamped on it. That kind of marking one would think would be associated with a military weapon and not a sporting weapon. Manufacture d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC), was a major supplier of military weapons, so that has me wondering.
Anyway, my question (and I guess it is somewhat of an urgent nature) has to do with chambers. I have tried to do my homework here before asking. If the gun is stamped 65, that will tell me that the shotgun has 2 1/2" chambers. I assume a larger number would mean longer chambers. If this gun has 2 1/2" chambers, is it considered safe to shoot 2 3/4" shells?
If not safe with 2 3/4" shells, does that make this shotgun more trouble than it would be worth (any good sources for the 2 1/2" shells short of reloading)? Also in the off chance anyone knows exactly what this shotgun is, I would appreciate any information. I was thinking this may have been a WW2 bring back. Do you think $300 be a fair price?
Thanks-
Doug
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,196 Likes: 20
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,196 Likes: 20 |
Do the normal inspections .. ring the bbls and be sure it is on face by removing the forearm and wiggling it by the bbls to see if any play can be detected. If it meets those tests then the $300 is likely fair. It is unlikely that the gun will not have reasonable proof marks, but you will have to tell us what they are or look at some of Larry Brown's remarks on previous posts to get a better idea of what to look for. Most of the French guns, inclusive of MAC's will have more than adequate proofs as far as pressure goes. That does not mean that you will be comforatble shooting any heavy loads in a typical French shotgun. That is the normal paradox w/French doubleguns .. the guns are well made and carry proofs to prove it, but do not weigh enough to allow use of heavy ammunition. Odds are good that it will have short chambers, but that is not such a big issue. At the risk of being slammed for having done so, I have had Kirk Merrington lenghten the chambers on one of my own French doubles and open the chokes while he was at it, both for my own enjoyment. A MAC could undergo similar conversion if needed and if judged to be safe to do so by a competent g'smith. A MAC or the sort you are describing will not be more than a well made utility gun, but it will prolly be better made & fit than a lot of American 'behind the door' guns as Lord Glenthorne is wont to call them. Hope this helps you out. There are others here who can offer additional and prolly better insight on MAC's, but you said that you needed some input NOW. I have never owned one, but I have examined several over the years. FWIW, none were particularly striking, but all were well enough fit.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,064
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,064 |
I don't understand this obsession with wanting to shoot heavy loads thru a light gun. A 6# twenty will knock your socks off when used with 1 oz. loads, and the rule applies to 12 bores under 7# as well. I have a Sarasqueta 20 bore that nearly tips the scales at 7#, and it is okay with 1 oz. loads. Do I use them? Hell no! A 20 is at its sweet point with 7/8 oz. field loads. And if you can't kill 'em with that, move on to a 16 with 1 oz. Enough of this light gun nonsense already. Chopper
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
tw: Altho not having much to do with this froggie, something I don't understand if the perception of doubles as "behind the door guns"; when I was a kid in Ohio, some pretty Burgherish folks had nothing more than a single barrel, Belgian no-name in the kitchen pantry. In fact, if you'd gathered up all the break action shotguns from all the farm sales and auctions in a four-state area in the midwest in the 50's or 60's you'd have little else. The idea that a 311, let alone a SW or Parker Trojan was a "farmers' gun" isn't a match with statistical reality; the cheapest were not "utility" shotguns. LG misinterprets if he thinks the production nos. for even these high production doubles didn't stretch pretty thin against the U.S. population in the early 20th C.
jack
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,854 Likes: 118
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,854 Likes: 118 |
I agree with Chopper, why punish yourself and the gun with heavier loads. I definitely would not shoot 2 3/4" shells in a gun that is chambered for 2 1/2" shells. Why would you do it, there are places to buy 2 1/2" out there. FWIW I would shoot low-pressure shells through it up to a 1 oz. shot load.
David
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 227
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 227 |
I definitely would not shoot 2 3/4" shells in a gun that is chambered for 2 1/2" shells. Why would you do it, there are places to buy 2 1/2" out there. FWIW I would shoot low-pressure shells through it up to a 1 oz. shot load. Thanks- That was my primary concern. I will check the gun before I shoot it and if the chambers are 65 (2 1/2") or not double proofed, I will not shoot it. I shoot 2 3/4" 1oz loads out of my 2 5/8th chambered Fox SW 12ga (I think that is a common practice). I would be new to the 16ga, and I wasn't sure if folks commonly shot 2 3/4" 1 oz loads out of a 2 1/2" 16ga. From what I gather many of older European 16ga have 2 1/2" chambers (65). After the war more of them were chambered for the 2 3/4" (70). I read somewhere that if the 2 1/2" chambered gun is "double proofed" (do I correctly assume two stamps instead of one?) then the shotgun would be able to handle the increased pressures of the longer shells. Otherwise, it is best to limit shooting to the 2 1/2" shells. I did a bit more homework last night and these shells are out there, but not easy to find and not cheap ($75 to $91.90 per case + shipping): http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com/16gavin7/http://www.ableammo.com/mall/eley_hunting_loads.asp
Last edited by dbadcraig; 01/14/07 08:20 AM.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,619 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,619 Likes: 7 |
If the MAC is in good order, you have the makings of a bargin. I have a 16 Ga. MAC also. Mine has 70 MM chambers equivalent to 2 3/4, double proofed. Mine is unusal in that the barrels and receiver are made of steel, that seems almost stainless. As a matter of fact the barrels finish is a paint. I have no doubt that this is the original finish, as I bought it from a gentleman, whos deceased brother brought it back after WWII.
It is a pure utility gun, nothing fancy, but very well nade, and handles better that some 2.5K doubles I have handled. I would like to see some pictures of it if possible.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,196 Likes: 20
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,196 Likes: 20 |
I'm concerned my comment was misread, I was not advocating the use of heavy loads, simply stating that the normal weights encountered in French guns tend to be on the light side even thought the guns are usualy well fit and oft proved with high pressure loads.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,752 Likes: 1374
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,752 Likes: 1374 |
I'm sure the good Rev has the information somewhere in his post above, but, there is NO reason you can't use 2 3/4" ammunition in a 2 1/2" gun-with one BIG caveat-the 2 3/4" ammunition has to be loaded to no higher level of pressure than the 2 1/2 inch ammunition the gun was designed for.
Assuming the gun was proofed in France with powder T (most guns since 1900 or so) that is a pretty high level of proof. Most of those French guns have pretty heavy wall thickness, but, they are light guns. The pounding YOU will take with off the shelf ammunition, won't be all that pleasant, howver.
The gun is a bargain, compared to what some dealers seem to think 311s are worth these days, so take some of the coin you saved and buy a case of the low pressure stuff from Eley or RST, or Polywad, or W. Richards, or whoever.
Sounds like a great deal of fun to me.
Best,
Ted
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