doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Winchester Winders

It is a .45-70 loaded with 70 grs of 1fg and a 475 gr paper patched bullet. The shooting was between 135 and 175 yds for the three of them. We saw hundreds of antelope. Amazing numbers.

Brent

SDH

Doug Turnbull did the colors. He did a high wall for me also that had a really similar pattern.

Brad Hurt

Would someone please explain the why & how of the gray area following the lines of the breech block mortise cut in Brad's photo?

waterman

The steel is thin in that area and the heat varies more there than in the thicker steel during the case harding process, thus the color difference.

There are Winders & then there are Winders. Collectors recognize 3 models. 1st & 2nd Models are (mostly) high walls in 22RF, usually 22 LR. The 3rd Model action (the one we are discussing) is the most common. Campbell discusses most of the origins in his "The Winchester Single Shot, Vol. 1". Campbell explained how the Winchester assemblers worked from parts bins and made whatever they were told to make. By 1917, only coil spring actions were in the parts bins. Campbell wrote about the rimfire musket actions being soft or casually heat treated. Since they were building 22RFs on a very strong action, heat treating was apparently not a high priority.

The high wall actions were hard to load with small cartridges, especially 22 Shorts. Some gunsmith modifications were made to make loading easier, but the results are not things of beauty.
Winchester was working with C. Winder to develop a modification to the action that would make it both easier to load & ambidextrous. That produced the 3rd Model. I think some had been made for small National Guard orders. Maybe these are the ones that show up in 22 LR.

In early 1917, the Gov't seized or put controls on all large steel stockpiles in the country. From then until 1919, steel was allocated to users by type & quality. Winchester got a lot of good steel & some of lesser quality. The Gov't also needed training rifles. In Dec. 1917, Winchester received an order for 2,000 rifles. Winchester management ordered 1,500 #3 actions (high walls) ground down to the pattern for the 3rd Model. The rifles were to be completed in 22 Short, with 28" barrels. What about the remaining 500? Were they already made? Did Winchester forge new actions? The original order was followed by several other orders. One source says the Gov't took possession of 11,419 rifles. In June 1918, another 2,000 were ordered (through the Ordnance Dept) by the NRA. More on next post.

Although the hiwall Winders were not hardened, they seem to have beem strong enough to be used in all sorts of overpressured .22 CF varmint rifles in the Golden Age of Wildcats, 1920-1950. Mechanically a very tough action.

Continuation of previous post.

When the war ended, the Gov't canceled orders for 32,612 more rifles. Some of these were being manufactured when the orders were canceled. Some new actions must have been forged, but of what kind of steel? After the war, Winchester bought the parts (presumably made of Gov't-controlled or Gov't-owned steel) at scrap steel prices. From 1919 through 1923, they assembled rifles from parts on hand and sold them. The military sold off their Winders through the DCM. How many Winder actions (modified high walls) were made seems to be anybody's guess. Campbell says the Winchester records account for 12,735.

I think that tells us why someone reports that his varmint rifle conversion was great and someone else reports that his action was dead soft and the conversion was not successful.

I see no issue CCH a 1895 action that will be used for 22 RF, I have done many.

Yes, Winchester changed from a low carbon steel to a Med carbon steel around 1900-1903, on some models, Winchester continued the model line but with more modern “smokeless” steel.

Prime example is the 1886, the frames wer initially made out of low carbon 1010 steel, then around 1898-1900 Winchester switched to a higher carbon steel.

CCH the earlier frames is not a problem, but I would not feel comfortable CCH a smokeless framed 1886 chambered for 45-90 or 5-110.

Again a 1885 action chambered in 22 rf…no problem

V/R

Mike

Just curious waterman,
Did your production info/numbers come from Campbell? How about the steel allocation info?

Mike, You certainly have much more experience doing CCH than I (0), but I'd base my decision on the steel rather than the cartridge. I wouldn't treat an '85 any differently than an '86, but either differently than a '95.

I guess we get to make our own choices.
I once saw a guy water-quench a cherry-red Ruger #1, giving me the willies from my toenails to my teeth... and he was teaching an NRA Seminar!!!

Steven

I’ve always been a proponent of “know your steel” before hardening. Now, if I remember correctly, Winchester's Smokeless steel had around .30 % carbon, which puts it into the med carbon zone… but just.

Winchester actually did Case Harden the models 1886, 1892 & 1894 that were made of Smokeless steels. Not many, but it was a factory option.

Minimize time at carburizing temp, blocking on the inside channel to mitigate carbon migration, quench at a temp well below hardening temp and normalize after hardening and I think you would be well in the “safe zone” esp. with a low power cog as a 22 lr.

Your reference to the Ruger #1, yes, 4140 quenched at 1400 deg f…just asking for trouble.

V/R

Mike