doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com An ethical dilemma?

Saturday at the range, I had a conversation with Mr. X about a specific rifle action, an original Winchester Low Wall.

Another guy (Mr. Y) I used to work with bought a beat-up Low Wall in 32RF. He had the block converted to CF and had a 32-40 liner put in the barrel. Then Mr. Y double-loaded a case, probably with 4227. I do not know what the load was, but when fired, the case failed and the stress broke the action completely in half, with vertical cracks at the rear of the cuts for the breech block. Mr. Y sold the rifle as junk. Mr. X bought it.

X took the action to Montana, where someone (not SDH) TIG-welded the action together and ground the welds flat. The action functioned normally after this repair. Then the action was given a fancy finish and was sent to a noted engraver to cover up the weld marks.

The restored action then went to Z, an accomplished machinist and advanced hobbyist. Z fitted a 25 cal Green Mountain barrel and chambered the barrel for 25-20 WCF. I don't think Z knew about the action's history.

X is a pretty good stock-maker. He put really nice wood on the rifle. The resulting job is beautiful. The rifle was the subject of an article in the SSR Journal. X then placed the rifle on consignment in a local gunshop. The gunshop owner gave a copy of the SSR Journal to the buyer.

But the rifle has since changed hands a couple of times. It is now mine. I was not swindled or anything, since I knew the rifle when it was a 32RF and since I worked with Y when the 32-40 disaster occurred. But the choice of 25-20 WCF bothers me. There are some high pressure (>30,000 psi) loads around. Being mortal, someone else will eventually have this rifle and I will not be around to tell the story. Should I make it into a 25-21, removing the potential for another high pressure disaster? Should I convert it to a 22 Long Rifle?

The problem is in the receiver and so IMO that's what needs addressing first. One solution that occurred to me would be to convert to rimfire as you suggest, and then to mark the under-wood surface of the receiver to indicate that it's been broken and welded back. In order for any future owner to convert back to CF, he would of necessity have to partially disassemble the rifle, thereby exposing the cautionary message. This would preserve the present attractive external appearance while providing enough info to prevent any future FUBARs.

Plus on a personal level, IMO the 22LR is far more useful and enjoyable than the 25-20 in an actual using-type rifle.
Regards, Joe

I am the person who purchased the broken actioned lo-wall from the guy who destroyed it.I pulled the 32-40 barrel and had it installed on a hi-wall action that I had.(I shot it for the first time in last Saturdays Schuetzen match and it did well). I had a noted gunsmith in Mt. tig weld the lo wall back together and discussed rebarreling it to 25-20 WCF and got his responce. After surface grinding the receiver the weld was not discernable. I obtained a Green Mountain .25 barrel and had it installed by Mr ? who also thought that it (the receiver) should be ok for the little 25-20 round. I had the receiver engraved by a noted engraver and left in the white, as I felt that if it was blued the weld might show up, which to me was a visual thing, not a safety issue as I felt it was an excellant job on the welding. I stocked it and shot it a bit and had no problems with the rifle. I was in the process of having a Meacham rifle built for me and had to put several rifles up for sale to fund that venture. When I originally sold it I gave full disclosure on what had happened to the action and what I did to get it functioning. If this rifle is potentially hazardous, I will offer to buy it back from the current owner.

JMO but sounds as everyone here. Was ethical in their dealings.And I am sure everyone knew what they was buying.Personally if I had been buying. I would have bought it for the purpose of converting it to a 22LR. As Joe suggested. Sounds like with all the engraving etc.It would be a super 22LR. JMO.

Personally I feel RELATIVELY confident that it would be safe with any factory 25-20 WCF as currently loaded, especially if the headspace is on the tight side.

That is, 'assuming' a full-pen weld or close to it. I say 'assuming' because a true full-penetration weld in the corners would require significant remachining on the inside, too much for the average smith's reasonable cost.

The Winchester wall parts man Richare Zorin owns a low wall frame that was cracked & welded & then cracked again, he uses it for a paperweight; I know this because I cannibalized the upper tang from it and returned it to him.

Unfortunately the possibility exists that some future owner will rechamber or overload the centerfire cartridge. Would be a shame to waste such an apparently attractive rifle, JMO.
Regards, Joe

The welder ought to be in Deer Lodge! and the engraver!
Want to do the right thing? Strip the parts and throw it in the lake! Anything else is a sin.
If it comes back to MT I've got a spot for it on the bottom of the Yellowstone River!
I guess I'm not supposed to hang around here!

I fully agree with Steven...if you do not have a lake then a sledge hammer will accomplish the same.

I could say alot more but it would not be nice so I will follow moms advice and stop here.

I agree, it's been damaged and someone could get hurt with it down the road. What I cant figure out is why anyone would put that much time and money into a gun that was damaged ?.

If I were to have a gun engraved it wouldn't be on a damaged receiver, it would be on a receiver that was as perfect as it could be, and it sure wouldn't be because I was trying to cover up something that was wrong with the receiver.

Are walls that rare that in order to have one you have to take a stressed, cracked, or ones that have been blown up and weld them back together ?.

I don't think so, and I would not want to be the "proud" owner of something like that. Ever wonder where all the extra wall parts come from, they should be coming from guns like this but guess not.
S T

Why not tie it to a tree and run some proof loads through it. Xray should show any flaws. There is nothing wrong with a weld that is done properly.
Tom

The ethical dilemma I would face would be whether or not to have anything further to do with Mr. X:

"Then the action was given a fancy finish and was sent to a noted engraver to cover up the weld marks." Nice, really nice.

"I was not swindled or anything, since I knew the rifle when it was a 32RF and since I worked with Y when the 32-40 disaster occurred." Were the intermediate buyers also aware of this action's history? See what I mean?

I guess my delicate sensibilities are offended.