doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com pieper 16 gauge shotgun

very handy thank you

Just a clarification; Pieper was a major supplier of Belgian tradename guns to H&D Folsom, which owned Crescent Fire Arms, and other U.S. distributors under the following names: Bayard, Eagle Gun Works, E.Leroy, Modified Diana, H.Pieper, Diane, The Leader, Bayard Arms Co, Pieper Arms Co, Premier Arms Co, National Arms Co, Henry Arms Co, Royal Gun Works, Le Rationnel, Schutz Marke, E-K, Eclipse Company, Metropole, Monarch Arms Co., and likely others
See http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXXQ

What is the major difference between LLH & ACL? Was it that LLH was an exporter and if not LLH then who was the Belgian exporter for German born Henri Pieper? Was there one Belgian exporter for tubes in the rough?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The 'LLH' of Laurent Lochet-Habran has been found on steel barreled Smith and Hunter Arms Fulton and "Ranger" for Sears, Lefever, Fox, Ithaca (esp. the Lefever Nitro Special), Baker (may be marked "Nitro Rolled Steel") and Folsom Crescent guns ("Fluid Temper Steel")

BOTH 'ACL' - Acier Cockerill Liege - and 'LLH' are found on Belgian guns, Crescent, and a Baker S grade



I believe Laurent Lochet-Habran was both a maker and exported, and have no knowledge of a relationship with Pieper.

I wish we knew all the Belgian exporters and U.S. importers

Whose partial mark (on left) could this have been!?!



More infro here, but for the record I know nothing about that new fangled fluid steel stuff
http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Raimey,

The time frame is huge. There were multiple agents, firms and associations involved in the trade. They all were busy trying to make a living. LLH had their own barrel shop in Nessonvaux. They would have seen Pieper as a competitor. Having said that, there may well have been instances were they worked together on a specific order.

I once had Harry McGowen build a rifle for me. He showed me his entire operation. He had a stack of raw tube 4140 stock from US Steel. So, do I have a McGowen barrel or a US Steel barrel on my gun? Harry put his name on it. It was Harry who shaped the tube, bored it, rifled it and chambered it.

The Cockerill stamp does not mean that Cockerill was making barrels. I believe the same is true of Krupp and others. Like US Steel they supplied the raw stock.

Back to your question. LLH was not smelting steel into tubes, neither was Pieper or Clement or Cap or ... They were shaping and boring barrels from raw stock.

Rough tubes were the same proposition. The barrel maker purchased raw stock and made the barrel. The barrel had to be moved out of one country and into another country. Both transactions presented business opportunities.

Pete

Thanks for the effort fellas. Ah, let's limit the time frame from the time of the introduction of the proof laws, or new fangled steel development, to say WWI. After that the Americans were rolling their own. I'd say it is going to come down to the common threads with a few being the mass production/mechanization, the Germans and LLH. The Belgians had embraced mechanization early on and were experts. The Germans took note and decided that with supervision, that the Belgians could make a stab the production numbers they needed. Now I realize that I'm mixing apples and oranges(military & sporting) but sporting arms components were beneficiaries of advances in miltiary weapons and their production processes. Last the LLH stamp is just too frequent on sporting arms tubes for him not to have been an exporter.

Anyone think LLH & Louis Muller were related: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20muller%20gb.htm ????? Somehow they had to be connected.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

http://s1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd455/nikosmav/
is the address t see pictures of the pieper 1908 shotgun

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The gun was proofed in Liege. It is nitro proofed with fluid steel barrels. At the time of proof the barrels weighed 1.3897 Kgs. If they are not within a few grams of that, they have been fooled with. From the catalog, the engraving looks similar to model 334. This was a mid-level gun. The catalog states it should weigh about 7lbs. I would put it between 1910-1914.

I have no idea of it's value in Greece today. I have seen higher grade Pieper guns from Greek dealers. If you want, I can send you the email of a dealer who may be able to help value the gun. Are you familiar with Epimenidis Platsidakis?

Pete

thank you very much for the replie.
i would like to have the e-mail of the dealer